Roadmaster 8 airbag suspension H frame movement and resulting wandering

[96 EVO]

2 hours ago, JDCrow said:

 

I’m in the process of how to get it. In drag race days, racers would melt lead into valve covers and bolt on where needed. That’s one avenue. I leaning toward tractor suitcase weights bolted on a rail of some sort fabbed up.
 

 

I would hope you have moved all of your heavy basement stuff forward before considering adding dead weight!

[JDCrow]

1 hour ago, RoadTripper2084 said:

Since you've literally tried all but one of the commonly used "solutions" and are still in the hunt I give your opinion some weight on this matter (see what I did there). 😉

So the article states: 

And mentions DPs but doesn't suggest an altered ratio for them. Are you using 50%?  What does that actually mean?  That the front axle weight should be 50% of the rear axle weight?

On my rig, with full diesel and water tanks, 1/2 full propane tank I weighed out as:

Front Axle: 4470kg / 9,854.66 lbs

Rear Axle:  8710kg / 19,202.3 lbs

Total Weight:  13,180 kg  /  29,056.9 lbs

So that works out to 51.3%, so pretty much right on the money, I guess.  😎

I have noticed that it seems to handle a little better with a full diesel tank than one closer to empty.

 

You are on the money with your thoughts. The 50% yields me the 700lbs. That’s completely full. I can’t remember if that’s with the wife packing the closet full or not. She is a fiend when she packs. 
 

The end of the article talks of a short Beaver being “solved” with the added weight. So as I mentioned, it’s about my last hurrah to get this thing tamed. 

38 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

I would hope you have moved all of your heavy basement stuff forward before considering adding dead weight!

I have 1 basement bay. That figure I came up with is full water and fuel. 

[RoadTripper2084]

57 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

You are on the money with your thoughts. The 50% yields me the 700lbs. That’s completely full. I can’t remember if that’s with the wife packing the closet full or not. She is a fiend when she packs. 
 

The end of the article talks of a short Beaver being “solved” with the added weight. So as I mentioned, it’s about my last hurrah to get this thing tamed. 

I have 1 basement bay. That figure I came up with is full water and fuel. 

I wonder how close you could get to the 50% mark if ran it temporarily with full diesel but empty water, etc. tanks? Basically lighten the rear as much as you can temporarily to "test' it at the correct ratio without having to add the weight to the front.

[JDCrow]

40 minutes ago, RoadTripper2084 said:

I wonder how close you could get to the 50% mark if ran it temporarily with full diesel but empty water, etc. tanks? Basically lighten the rear as much as you can temporarily to "test' it at the correct ratio without having to add the weight to the front.

I have tried it all, problem who runs with an empty water tank? Usually a 2 day trip with an overnight boondock and need the water, and the ever present breakdown or have to hole up for weather. 
 

With the suitcase weights, I can add or subtract weight as needed. So I can start at say 350lbs and work up to the 700lbs and if it falls in between in the middle great.

 

 

[b_faster]

20 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Having followed along reading thoughts, I’ll throw mine in, as it’s a different perspective.

My coach is short, 34’. I have installed just about everything mentioned above. Only thing I have not installed is the Source Rear sway bar. I have one, but not into drilling the frame at this point. 
 

Because of my length, I’ve always felt the coach doesn’t contact the road correctly, and thus feels light. It’s almost like I’m in a drag race, front end off the ground, and the coach goes where it wants and I’m just trying to keep it between the lines as it flies down the hwy. 
 

It is most definitely worse when coasting, better when the Jake is on or when under power .

At any rate, I ran across this article from HENDERSON’s and applied the ratio base on my axle weights and I’m about 700lbs light in the front.

I’m in the process of how to get it. In drag race days, racers would melt lead into valve covers and bolt on where needed. That’s one avenue. I leaning toward tractor suitcase weights bolted on a rail of some sort fabbed up.
 

Welding is out of my wheelhouse currently, so will have to source it out. It’s going to be a winter project I think. 
 

https://www.hendersonslineup.com/blog/worth-the-weight

Prior to cross bars and watts link on my coach, I had experimented with ride height.  I did note that when running the rear of the coach at 1" lower height and the front at factory height the coach handled worse.  Other tests were negligible.  This lines up with some of Henderson's findings in this article.  

 

[Pudgy Camper]

18 hours ago, JDCrow said:

You are on the money with your thoughts. The 50% yields me the 700lbs. That’s completely full. I can’t remember if that’s with the wife packing the closet full or not. She is a fiend when she packs. 
 

The end of the article talks of a short Beaver being “solved” with the added weight. So as I mentioned, it’s about my last hurrah to get this thing tamed. 

I have 1 basement bay. That figure I came up with is full water and fuel. 

After reading that Henderson article it got me thinking what my ratio is.

Steer axle - 11,700

Drive axle - 19,120

That's a 61% ratio for me. About 2000lbs heavier at the front than the recommended 50/50 ratio.

I'm still working on taming my beast but its getting there. Just added the rear cross bars and had my TRW rebuilt and it's adjusted pretty good. Getting ready for a 2000 mile round trip to Texas, we'll see how she does!

Edited October 3 by Pudgy Camper

[David Pratt]

For those Members who are on the fence about installing the Watts Link and/or Cross Bars the following is my own experience.

Back in 2014 when Van was developing the the Cross Bars and Watts Link for the Roadmaster chassis he wanted to install the Watts Link on a tag axle coach. He was having excellent results with non-tag axle coaches and felt that there might be an improvement for the Tag Axle coaches.

After much discussion we decided to use my 05 Exec as the Guinea Pig to develop and install the Watts Link and a set of rear crossbars on a Tag Axle coach.

The following is my evaluation of the Watts Link after the installation.

 Van, The Watts Link will definitely make a Tag Axle Coach handle better, it does make a difference, so your curiosity was correct and thanks for encouraging me to be a part of it. These are my first observations so far. Once I get the cross braces installed and go on our trip after Christmas I will be able to give you more input. I am looking forward to driving the coach on the next trip, which will probably test the Watts Link Installation more.  

As we have discussed numerous times, I believe my Exec handles very well. This assumption is based on having driven other coaches of comparable weight, size equipped with a Tag Axle. The two coaches that I consider the best driving/handling is the Prevost and the Fore Travel IH-45 when compared to my coach.

There are Four areas on my coach that were not very noticeable on the Prevost and the Fore Travel. (1) The "Push and Push Over when being passed by a Semi. (2) The Squirreliness when driving on rough or encumbered roads. (3) The Firmness of the feel of the Coach when changing lanes and abrupt avoidance maneuvers, such as hard braking and quick turns. (4) The last is Tracking on the Crowns of Highways. The Tru-Center takes a lot of the work out of it. It will be interesting to see if the Watts Link Installation lessens that and if it helps the Tru-Center be more precise. 

The trip this past weekend was 450 miles and proved to be a good drive to test the Watts Link installation. The weather along the route was very windy (15-20MPH) and about 250 miles was all crosswind, intermittent rain showers that at times were real gully washers. about 80 miles was on construction highways. 

Before leaving the barn I set my Tru-Center at neutral with wheels straight ahead. This would enable me to evaluate the Watts Link on its own merits without the help of the Tru-Center. 

As soon as I pulled onto the highway from the house to I-95, I could notice the difference of how the coach drove. This is a narrow two lane road with good crown and rougher than hell. I did not feel any effects from the crown pull which I did before, Definitely a PLUS. I purposely took the sharp left hand curve faster than before just to see how the coach re-acted. The coach went around that curve like it was on a rail and under control. The coach responded much better it did not have that soft feeling you get when entering curves.  

Driving north on I-95 I had to contend with a 15-20 MPH crosswind. I still had to put input into the steering wheel to keep the coach in its lane, which I did expect. The big difference is steering correction input was minimal compared to what I used to have before the Watts Link Installation. Crosswinds, especially the stronger gusts would move the coach and would take more effort to correct, now much less. The coach still drove and tracked very well and was much more comfortable to drive in the crosswinds. Now, understand I was not using the Tru-Center to help the coach track straight. Curiosity finally got the best of me and I pushed the button on the Tru-Center to center the wheel against the crosswind and road crown and what a difference it made. I use to think my coach handled well, especially when using the Tru-Center to help overcome the road crowns and cross winds. The coach drove like I had enabled the Tru-Center before I decide to use it. With the Tru-Center switched on and compensating for the crosswinds I can now drive the coach with one hand/ two fingers. The Exec actually feels like it is riding on a Rail compared to before. Sandy was definitely Impressed as she thought I was crazy in the first place to do it. She felt the coach rode great before. 

I still could feel the push from a Passing Semi, but the correction now is about 80% less than before the Watts Link Installation.

The coach was very stable when driving in the constructions zones where the pavement was uneven and rough, no darting or squirmy feeling, tracked very well. There is a much more noticeable improvement over what it was before the Watts Link Install. 

On a smooth highway and no crosswinds the coach drove and handled well as before, but much differently than before absolutely no darting or wandering. 

At this point I have not found one negative thing I can put my finger on that is a takeaway from installing the Watts Link. 

My 05 Exec handled very well before the Watts link Installation and I really did not know what to expect if anything after installing it. I am much surprised and thoroughly happy with the difference the Watts Link Installation has made to the ride and handling. Now It definitely has a ride I would compare to a Prevost and maybe even Fore Travel. 

It is hard to put everything down in an email, but Installing the Watts Link was worth the Effort. It will be interesting to see if the rear cross braces will make the handling even better

 

Man, I love it when a plan comes together

 

[Chargerman]

Thanks Dave,

     That’s what I needed to hear. I will move forward with the Watts link. What were the results of the rear cross bars? From what Mike Hughes has told me, the only item he makes to fit my 06 Executive is the front Watts link

[David Pratt]

Van and I were sort of skeptic about whether the crossbars would help much at all, but we decided why not install them and see what if any could improve the handling of an already well handling coach and would it improve any more than what we attained with the Watts Link.

The crossbars for the drive axle surprised both of us and worked as expected. Van custom made the Cross Bars for my coach because I was the R&D coach. Mike should be able to make them as all the hardware is the same as any other Cross Bar Kit except the bars will be shorter than a non-tag axle coach.

After installing the Watts Link I still had a slight push from an approaching and passing Semi that was 80% better after installing the Watts Link. Adding the crossbars eliminated that other 20% and the push from an approaching and passing Semi disappeared.

In my own personnel opinion the Watts Link is the Priority Upgrade to improving the ride, handling and performance of the road Master Chassis whether it be an 8 or a 10RS chassis. It is money well spent.

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

52 minutes ago, David Pratt said:

Van and I were sort of skeptic about whether the crossbars would help much at all, but we decided why not install them and see what if any could improve the handling of an already well handling coach and would it improve any more than what we attained with the Watts Link.

The crossbars for the drive axle surprised both of us and worked as expected. Van custom made the Cross Bars for my coach because I was the R&D coach. Mike should be able to make them as all the hardware is the same as any other Cross Bar Kit except the bars will be shorter than a non-tag axle coach.

After installing the Watts Link I still had a slight push from an approaching and passing Semi that was 80% better after installing the Watts Link. Adding the crossbars eliminated that other 20% and the push from an approaching and passing Semi disappeared.

In my own personnel opinion the Watts Link is the Priority Upgrade to improving the ride, handling and performance of the road Master Chassis whether it be an 8 or a 10RS chassis. It is money well spent.

 

 

My experience was the same.  I had done a LOT.  As David said....he set this TruCenter...which I added many years before based on his praise... TO NEUTRAL.

I talked to him one on one after he reported the findings and such.  He said, roughly quoting, the Watts Link seems to "multiply" or improve the steering.  Translated....we did NOT have to adjust our TruCenters nearly as much.

I noticed that immediately as I was leaving Van's house after installing Mike's Watts Link and Van adjusted, minimally, my TRW box.

SO....when I TOUT the Stabilizer....  It maybe should be described as a "Fatigue Reduction" item.  Even though I pretend to NOT to BE GROWING OLDER....I can tell that there is a bit of creeping driver Fatigue.  I knew instantly that that was being reduced when the Watts was installed.

I also found out that if I did make a TruCenter Correction....it was minor and it HELD.  In the past...without the Watts, you would have to fiddle with it....The TruCenter was great...and I still have it.  It served my purpose in less SEE SAWING of the wheel...which I attribute to the overly sensitive or over designed Power Steering System.  That was the complaint early on and there were hundreds of emails or posts on they Yahoo Site about the STEER with ONE hand and STABILIZE with the OTHER.  I learned.  I practiced that.  BUT, after I added the TruCenter...the adjustments and such were reduced by at least 50 to 75%.

THEN...add in the Watts...and it is amazing....as David told me when we talked.  SO...whatever the geometry and the impact that the Watts makes on the Chassis...that also "amplifies" the Steering Stabilizer.  The stabilizer makes me less tired...and that was in 2010....I had it on in 2011 and drove over 7K miles and we were on the road a lot of the day. I was less tired them.  AFTERWARDS in 2012...I added the Sway bars and Source Shocks...the improvements were documented by my WIFE.  She could READ without headaches.  Take away all the computerized drawing and what if and the "AUTOCAD" Finite analysis.  When she can read comfortably for hours...and she got headaches the year before....  I KNOW THAT WAS MONEY WELL SPENT.  Don't need a pro driver, like David....to verify that.

SO... YES, I am an advocate of the Stabilizer and it did improve or was more effective after the Watts.

As to the cross braces...a JUDGEMENT CALL. I reached a PLATEAU in my comfort and handling and NOW I have to slow down....otherwise, I get nasty remarks and looks.  YES, I dare say, on my NON TAG rig....That the Cross Braces would help...but my Yukon does NOT WAG the Camelot.  I DID, and Van confirmed this....add a LOCKING unit to the Tow Bar Receiver.  Van made up a MONSTER of one.  I bought an OFF the SHELF unit and it made a WORLD of difference.

That's it....

[b_faster]

Similar results, although I did it in reverse from David.  I did rear cross bars first due to my Windsor with air only leveling being a "real snowflake".  The cross bars seem to help more with the push from passing and being passed, with some wandering control.  Once I had the Watts link system built and installed, the wandering disappeared.  

I had to build my own Watts link frame system due to uniqueness of my Windsor.  It was worth all of the effort.