Rust inside airbags

[Tom Cherry]

19 minutes ago, John C said:

I totally understand we should stick to the original topic as much as possible.

But in practice It is very hard to do that unless you keep create more new post. an followup question even not related to the original topic should not be banned unless it take so much space.

It is just like you are chatting with someone about the weather, before you know, you are talking about the RV or the campsite or New  York.

For example, my post is related to the rust in the airbag, it has nothing to do with the level the coach everyone is talking about right now.

What is the standard on on how far you can or can't not suppose related original topic? Do we need to get permission what we can or can't say on the post related to the coach?

My understand is this a friendly group (there are a lot of friendly people here) and the main goal of this group is to get help on your Monaco coach and hopefully someday you know enough then you can also help other fellow Monaco owners.

 

 

 

John,

You just described WHAT the site is set up for.  It is a friendly group.  It provides information.

But, it is not designed to by a fireside or campground chat or BS session.

YES...the topic MORPH.  But, leveling and your air compressor are related.  This is a fine line and we, the staff, have to exercise judgement.  The morphing is something that seems to come in cycles.  But, when it does, it takes time for us to do the housekeeping and separate it.

NO, you do NOT have to have permission.  BUT, when something off the wall....like "Changing my bearings to OIL" is added to an air compressor and maybe "leveling" topic is totally outside the guidelines and the charter that was set up.

We have had folks that start a new topic, if it is something that they thing might be germane by..

I have had this issue....and it was briefly discussed and here the link.  Then they put in the last one.  For example....real world.  We had a long discussion about TIRES.  One poster was then guided by what was posted and got tires.  BUT, then when he got home from the tire place....he discovered a massive power steering link.  So he posted on that link.

What we did was to split out that topic or the WHAT CAUSED MY FLUID LINK (gist...not the exact title) and his post had the background or WHY he had an issue....could the tire dealer have done something to his MH that caused a leak and if so....how and where to leak.  He has been given advice about notifying the dealer and also how to look and what to do.

Your example of going from an air compressor that happens to be in the rear and the word AXLE was mentioned.  Just because one mentioned an AXLE, then that does not open up every conceivable question about an axle. 

I hope you understand.  The topics here and the information is supposed to be "searchable" by title topics and also key words.  Who would think to check on changing to oil bath in a thread that had "Rust in air bags".  All members understand that and generally comply.  

That makes the site more organized and also user friendly. NOW if you have a question about a new topic and want an answer as to TAG IT ON....or make a new topic...unless you are dead in the water, then PM myself or Frank or such. 

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this and let us explain it more.

The KEY is ALSO RESEARCH.  Just throwing out a random question...which we, the members and staff, expect to be researched is not permitted.  Thus there were two issues...  SO, in your case, please research something before you post....either in an existing topic or start a new one.  Members will be more inclined to provide the second level of help....as in....this is what I have done....otherwise, they may, as many have done and commented, offline, just ignore it.

Hope this sheds more light....if you need more information then call me and we can discuss...  these matters are better handled that way and you have my number as I have provided you with tech support several times. 

[96 EVO]

3 hours ago, Ivan K said:

Even if there were no leaks, we often park in unlevel places where there could be near a foot difference between front corner to opposite rear corner (one bag deflated while opposing corner is fully extended) and the huge difference in air volume in bags can make a difference with temperature swings. Like leveling with hot air after arrival and then releveling after a cool night. If the site is worth staying at, I don't mind it. Notice the axle angles needed to get level to see what I mean.

Yep, I've noticed in the summer if I leave my leveling system in 'Auto' mode, it will wake up and let air out of bags during the heat of the day, then add air at night!

That's a recipe for my noisy aux pump firing up while we're sleeping!

I usually shut the system down now. My coach stays level for weeks!

 

 

Edited June 18 by 96 EVO

[John C]

4 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Yep, I've noticed in the summer if I leave my leveling system in 'Auto' mode, it will wake up and let air out of bags during the heat of the day, then add air at night!

That's a recipe for my noisy aux pump firing up while we're sleeping!

I usually shut the system down now. My coach stays level for weeks!

 

 

That is probably why the fuse for my Aux compressor is removed by the previous owner.

I did noticed one thing, at least on my coach, the air in airbag is isolated with the air in the front and rear tanks, even you lose all the air in both tanks but you airbags could still have a lot of air inside.

I understand the the weight of the suspense on each airbag is different and that will cause some airbags lose air fast than other, but over all it should not be that much a difference.

So if I understand correctly

1) If campsite is level, and you dump all the air, the coach will be forever - of course

2) If campsite is level,  and you don't dump the air and you level the coach, the coach should always be level or for a long long time - unless some airbags lose air fast than others. That could indicate a problem on your airbags/airlines,

3) If campsite is no level,  and you dump all the air, then you move some airbags up to level the coach but leave other airbags flat, soon or later the up airbags will lose its air because the weight of the suspense on the up airbags.

4) If campsite is no level, and you don't dumped all the air, you just level the coach, in theory you will lose your level slower than 3), because the weight of the suspension is on all airbags, it will cause all airbags lose air slowly at at the same time.

Assume there is no leak in your airbags and the airlines related to airbags, you are suppose to leveled for weeks - of course you will lose your level eventually.

Did I get it right?

 

 

[96 EVO]

Yes, for the most part, but, on a terribly unlevel site, I wouldn't consider dumping all air from all corners!

You would risk twisting your frame!

One other thing.... I used to pull the fuse for the aux compressor until Frank discovered the reed valve in the compressor head that get's dirty and allows air to bleed back through the compressor, causing it to run more often than it should.

I can't recall the last time I've heard mine run, without me doing something to cause it!

And that's probably about 2yrs now!

Edited June 18 by 96 EVO

[Ivan K]

A little nuance,  talking leveling, in auto level it it is smart enough to not drop a corner anymore after the bag is deflated to predetermined low pressure, like 15 psi with HWH to prevent twisting. When that happens, it start inflating the low corner instead, to achieve level.

[96 EVO]

4 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

A little nuance,  talking leveling, in auto level it it is smart enough to not drop a corner anymore after the bag is deflated to predetermined low pressure, like 15 psi with HWH to prevent twisting. When that happens, it start inflating the low corner instead, to achieve level.

Yeah, pretty sure Valid does about the same.

[John C]

58 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Yes, for the most part, but, on a terribly unlevel site, I wouldn't consider dumping all air from all corners!

You would risk twisting your frame!

One other thing.... I used to pull the fuse for the aux compressor until Frank discovered the reed valve in the compressor head that get's dirty and allows air to bleed back through the compressor, causing it to run more often than it should.

I can't recall the last time I've heard mine run, without me doing something to cause it!

And that's probably about 2yrs now!

OMG! Twisting the frame!!!  Just learned another important thing.

So even you don't dump air, if for whatever reason the airbags loss the air, it is unlikely but possible to twisting the frame?

So looks like the coach is much better off with hydraulic level jack then.

My previous gasser coach has hydraulic level instead of air level, I can park in any level ground, if there were too too low on one side, I just put 2-8" 10"x10" under the jack pad, sometimes I even had the front wheels off the ground.

Now I remember last year when just pulled in to a campsite, the neighbor with DP told me that camping site is bad and he already tried for a long time and he could not level it, to his surprise I just leveled it in less than 3 minutes.

I should have bought a coach with hydraulic jack because I boondocking most of time. most places I camp are very uneven. Wondering how much that will cost to add it now. I am sure it is not gonna be cheap.

I got a solution without the hydraulic level, just carry my two 4.5" 2x12" ramps for the two front tires, for the uneven group, I just face my front wheel to the lowest point , put the ramp(s) there and drive front tire(s) on the ramp(s)

It will take up some space on my storage unit but I think it is worth it.

 

Edited June 18 by John C

[96 EVO]

My previous gas coach had hyd jacks. 3 of the 4 leaked hyd fluid. I had to carry a couple of gallons of ATF with me to top up the reservoir when the alarm started going off climbing hills!

I never 'dump' air!

I park, put out slides, and hit 'Auto' level!

After a few hours, the Valid system has made it's adjustments, I power down the leveling system.

[Ivan K]

Adding a new hydraulic leveling would be astronomical in my world. We also boondock whenever possible and always manage, even if I have to drag in a leveling rock 😁. 

[96 EVO]

19 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

Adding a new hydraulic leveling would be astronomical in my world. We also boondock whenever possible and always manage, even if I have to drag in a leveling rock 😁. 

Cool!

Rocks in my part of the continent are all round 😖!

[Frank McElroy]

1 hour ago, 96 EVO said:

Yes, for the most part, but, on a terribly unlevel site, I wouldn't consider dumping all air from all corners!

You would risk twisting your frame!

One other thing.... I used to pull the fuse for the aux compressor until Frank discovered the reed valve in the compressor head that get's dirty and allows air to bleed back through the compressor, causing it to run more often than it should.

I can't recall the last time I've heard mine run, without me doing something to cause it!

And that's probably about 2yrs now!

Ben - It's great to hear that cleaning that reed check valve was the long term solution to fixing the air leak causing the compressor to run more often than it should.  Glad my procedure on how to clean the reed valve worked.

[96 EVO]

Still working great to this day!

Often, the only way I know my compressor is still functional is by cracking the tank drain valve!

[Frank McElroy]

10 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Yeah, pretty sure Valid does about the same.

Yes, that is correct.  I know Valid does have an option in the settings to auto level low being that it will auto level the coach as low as possible without twisting the frame.  To my knowledge Monaco never used that feature.  I would think that HWH also has that feature in the settings but I'm not sure 

[Tom Cherry]

22 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Yes, that is correct.  I know Valid does have an option in the settings to auto level low being that it will auto level the coach as low as possible without twisting the frame.  To my knowledge Monaco never used that feature.  I would think that HWH also has that feature in the settings but I'm not sure 

Ben, Frank & John.

Good discussion, but I’m a bit confused. Ben has a Scepter…which is a twin to my Camelot.  Frank and John have Dynasty.  The Scepter/Camelot AUX air compressor. It is up front.  Dynasty is in the rear. i thought, was different than the Dynasty.  I thought our air compressor was a low end VIAR unit. It has a drain fitting on the bottom of the tank…not a plumbed fitting up to the front.

Ben, the most common failure of the Aux S/C pump is the pressure switch.  Easy to trouble shoot.  Shinny under the pump. Pull the wires off the switch.  IF THE SWITCH IS ZIP TIED BELOW THE COMPRESSOR or top of tank, odds are ….water has built up and corroded the contacts. Use a paper clip and jumper the terminals.  If it runs and you haven’t heard it run in a while…it’s toast. It is a 90-120 Viar.  Amazon has.  Don’t order the OFF ROAD one.. Viar says the internal contacts are the same and the switch is a little robust…externally.

The real test….manually drain your tanks.  Then do a litle tweaking using the manual controls on the leveling.  NO VRRRRMMMMM….bad switch, assuming fuse is OK… I don’t think our pumps are as “exotic” or as NICE as the Dynasty 

OK…I’m the DUMP and LEVEL person. I do that because I THINK that the lower the level of the body, the less likely to be “rocked” by winds.  We camp near the outer banks of NC and wind is like being on Cape Cod. Also, from a personal safety issue, I try to keep the steps as close to the ground as possible. I DO have a low assist stool or step if the terrain is bad. My wife had knee issues for years, so making it easier for her to step up and get into the MH was the motivating factor or reason. Even with a replacement knee, it is still a bit of an issue.  So….that’s my rationale.

Frank is an advocate of level when you pull onto the site as the MH will be at “ride height”….which is the same or the instructions from Monaco as they wanted the body NEUTRAL and not in a TWIST. 

John, you need to fully understand that there is a WARNING on the Valid and as the Auto Level works, there is a “chip” that prevents the system from going into a TWIST (it will light up and say TWIST). NOW, I dump or lower using common sense. If the site is level…then all the way. If it has issues, then I stop and start to manually level.

YES….as I manually level, the TWIST light may pop on or flash. But then I correct. I DO KNOW THIS …. The AutoLevel is like Artificial Intelligence.  It will always level the MH at a slightly higher level. That is why, based on our needs and wife’s knee…and, over the years, experimenting, that the lower the level….the less “rock”.

IN ADDITION… the higher the level or the higher the pressure in the bags, the more “adjustments” the AUTOLEVEL system is going to make. I was in my 5th Summer of use, when I discovered that the Viair pressure switch was DEAD….never heard the AUX compressor come on.  Fixed that.  After a year, I got tired of the tweaking….and just turn OFF the system.  Works for me and the Frank confirmed he killed his.

Hope this provides some clarity and explanation.  Each of us has logical, hopefully, reasons for what we do that is a bit different….I NEVER drop all the air and then try to level as on a ugly site….the TWIST is “screaming” or flahing.

 

[96 EVO]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Ben, Frank & John.Good discussion, but I’m a bit confused. Ben has a Scepter…which is a twin to my Camelot.  Frank and John have Dynasty.  The Scepter/Camelot AUX air compressor. It is up front.  Dynasty is in the rear. i thought, was different than the Dynasty.  I thought our air compressor was a low end VIAR unit. It has a drain fitting on the b

ottom of the tank…not a plumbed fitting up to the front.

 

 

 

I have the same compressor Frank has.

Just mounted in a different location.

I've had no issues with the pressure switch. My problem was the reed valve not sealing completely after the compressor shut down, allowing the air in the tank to bleed back thru the compressor!

Sometimes worse than others, even to the point of being able to hear the air escaping!

Edited June 18 by 96 EVO

[Pduggs]

On 6/16/2024 at 10:42 PM, Frank McElroy said:

John, If you replace all your air bags and only the front PS airbags inside were rusted inside, the logical explanation is simple - there was a leak on the PS front side.  The previous owner likely let the aux air pump work and was in effect filling just the front PS airbags with moist air because they were leaking and there is no air dryer on that Aux air tank.  That's why you saw all that rust in just the PS front air bags.

What most folks don't realize is that if you are using the aux air compressor for auto level, it's critical to drain water out of that tank every 30 days.

And if that compressor runs more than a couple times a day, you need to drain the water out about once a week.

Hey Frank, thanks for this. Reminded me to drain my tanks. 

Do you know the procedure for doing this?  Do you first air up the bags to cutoff, then open air lines?  My owner’s manual just states open air valves and leave open five minutes after the release of air is no longer heard. 

[Frank McElroy]

This is how I do it.

Air up the coach and then turn off the engine.  On your Dynasty, remove the aux air compressor CB in the FRB so it won't start.  You want to drain the wet tanks first.  So, drain the main wet tank (up front with the male fitting) and drain the small aux air tank (small air line to rear drain valve).  If you get any moisture, from the front main wet tank, it's time for a new air dryer.  If you get a lot of water out of the aux tank, you aren't draining it often enough.

After the wet tanks are empty, I then drain one of the dry air tanks.  When it's empty I drain the other dry air tank.  I alternate which dry air tank I drain first.  Using this procedure I'm confirming that the check valves to the wet tank and check valves between the dry air tanks are all working properly.  If you find that a dry air tank is empty before the drain valve is opened, you have a failed check valve.

[Pduggs]

On 6/20/2024 at 12:17 PM, Frank McElroy said:

This is how I do it.

Air up the coach and then turn off the engine.  On your Dynasty, remove the aux air compressor CB in the FRB so it won't start.  You want to drain the wet tanks first.  So, drain the main wet tank (up front with the male fitting) and drain the small aux air tank (small air line to rear drain valve).  If you get any moisture, from the front main wet tank, it's time for a new air dryer.  If you get a lot of water out of the aux tank, you aren't draining it often enough.

After the wet tanks are empty, I then drain one of the dry air tanks.  When it's empty I drain the other dry air tank.  I alternate which dry air tank I drain first.  Using this procedure I'm confirming that the check valves to the wet tank and check valves between the dry air tanks are all working properly.  If you find that a dry air tank is empty before the drain valve is opened, you have a failed check valve.

Hi Frank, yesterday I cleaned my engine with Pine-Sol and water. It appears my rear tank drains are leaking, though I’ve not noticed it effecting the level of the coach or my air pump running more than usual. 
 

Any thoughts?

[Frank McElroy]

1 hour ago, Pduggs said:

Hi Frank, yesterday I cleaned my engine with Pine-Sol and water. It appears my rear tank drains are leaking, though I’ve not noticed it effecting the level of the coach or my air pump running more than usual. 
 

Any thoughts?

It is very common for a coach to stay level for weeks as long as there are no leaks in the air leveling system, yet the air tanks will lose air over a few days.  As long as your air system passes the DOT air brake safety test of no more than 2 PSI drop in air pressure per minute, you are just fine.  Sometimes cycling those valves will help seat them a bit more.

[96 EVO]

Is  one of those two drains for your Valid leveling tank?

If so, I can't see how your aux compressor couldn't run more frequently than needed.

[Pduggs]

3 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Is  one of those two drains for your Valid leveling tank?

If so, I can't see how your aux compressor couldn't run more frequently than needed.

Yes. Valid. My manual says they are Rear Air Tank and Auxiliary Air Leveling tank drains 
 

 

[96 EVO]

And your aux compressor is operational? Fuse isn't pulled or something?

[Tom Cherry]

20 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

And your aux compressor is operational? Fuse isn't pulled or something?

The two drains are the REAR and the AUXILLARY.  There are also TWO Drains and a "BLOW 'ER UP" fitting up front. This is a Dynasty.  His compressor is in the rear.  Ours is in the front. We only have TWO up there.  We don't have a plumbed line from the AUX....it is, at least on MINE, on the bottom of the tank. 

Two TOTALLY different air systems. 

The fact that he has BUBBLES on BOTH Rear valves shows that the Aux Compressor is working...

Hope this helps.

[Pduggs]

No. I replaced the compressor last year, as the original was toast. It seldom runs and the coach stays level. It seems weird considering the air that appears to be leaking from the pics I attached. If you put your hand in front of the drain you can’t feel any air escaping. I reset them as Frank suggested. 

17 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

The two drains are the REAR and the AUXILLARY.  There are also TWO Drains and a "BLOW 'ER UP" fitting up front. This is a Dynasty.  His compressor is in the rear.  Ours is in the front. We only have TWO up there.  We don't have a plumbed line from the AUX....it is, at least on MINE, on the bottom of the tank. 

Two TOTALLY different air systems. 

The fact that he has BUBBLES on BOTH Rear valves shows that the Aux Compressor is working...

Hope this helps.

My compressor is mounted behind the front axle. 

[96 EVO]

17 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

 

The fact that he has BUBBLES on BOTH Rear valves shows that the Aux Compressor is working...

Hope this helps.

Not necessarily!

His aux tank will receive air from the rear chassis air tank, until the PPV shuts it down!