No interior lights, fans, or water pump.

[WilPaul35]

2008 HR Scepter 42DSQ. I have no interior lights, fans, or water pump.  Multiplex switches all have a flickering amber light.  All other 12V items work.  Tested relay controlled by salesman switch, 13.4V in, none out when switched off, 13.4V out when switched on.  13.4V to all 3 multiplex modules, all fuses good tested with meter. 

At same time as this problem appeared the display on the Intellitec smart ems quit working and board will not allow ems contolled circuits to operate. All other 120V appliances work.  Tested fuse on ems board and it was good.

I have wiring diagrams as close as I could find and have looked through other posts in the forum. 

Any help welcome. Thanks, Paul

[Dr4Film]

If you are in a jam and need the devices controlled by the Intellitec EMS Control Board, you can simply bypass each of the four relays. Then you will have the use of those devices. Normally they are the Hot Water Heater, Washer/Dryer and the two rooftop AC's front and rear.

I can't help with the any of the first part. Sure seems strange that you have some 12 VDC and some you do not.

[96 EVO]

First thing I would try is disconnect from shore power, turn off the house battery disconnect, then everything back on.

[Tom Cherry]

Agree with Ben.  Kill AC. Turn off BOTH banks.  Make sure NO Solar is on or going to either.  100% NO POWER.  You can also pull the jumpers on the house bank.

Leave the power off for maybe a few minutes.  Then, also pull the fuse on the EMS board.  i have pulled the pigtails and let the board sort of “sit”. Plug back in the pigtails and fuse.

Then power back up.  Jumpers in place.  AC on. Chassis ON and House on.  Then see.

There are 4 or so circuit breakers behind the panel with the modules on them. We have had a lot of folks with loose connections on them.  Pull snd tighten all the connections there….good PM.

If not, then you can PM @Frank McElroy or @pwhittle.  They are our experts on the larger CPU system.  Your’s does not have a CPU, but has an IPX which is sort of like the “mini” brain.  

Lets hope that works…

[WilPaul35]

Heading out to try that. Fortunately stll at home.  Just purchased a few weeks ago and still learning.  Will update on what I find.

[Tom Cherry]

From experience….

NEVER EVER disconnect batteries or pull jumpers with the SWITCHES ON.  You can a short “arc” or quick connection….then OFF.  That drives the Intellitec MPX system bonkers…trust me.

BEST ADVICE.  Go to NAPA. Buy the 7841144 12” jumper.  There are two solenoid inside the compartment (called Rear Run Bay….guess what the one under the Driver is called.  Front Run Bay.  Often abbreviated RRB & FRB.

NOW….At the front door….push the Salesman or Battery Cut Off down…that kills the rear solenoid….

Open the metal cabinet, thumb screw locks in the RRB.  Two metal solenoids there. The big one in the center is the Big Boy or Battery Boost Solenoid.  The smaller one on the right is the Salesman’s Solenoid.  BEfORE you kill power to both banks….use your VOM.  Check studs to ground.  One side will have power….the other side will not.  This is a latching solenoid…it is NOW OFF..

 Kill power to both banks and solar (if you have a solar, there is a “box” in the last passenger bay…where the inverter is.  It on one the left side wall of the bay.  There are multiple wires on it.  Two say battery 1 & 2 or something like that.  That is the output from the solar system.  If you disconnect each one, that kills the solar to both banks.

NOW…install the NAPA jumper on the studs of the Salesman Solenoid.  That rascal is an accident waiting to happen.  Now, disconnect ONE of the small wires.  That is the control wire from the upfront switch….you CAN either pull the fuse.  I took all the control wires loose and labeled them.

Solenoid is bypassed or has 100% connection….do this…restore power…remember solar!!

 

[MyronTruex]

If multiplex switches are flickering, and this is not normal, then perhaps some serious AC ripple is getting to the circuits. 

Do your batteries smell of rotten eggs? Do they look bulged? 

Disconnect shoreline and reboot the systems as suggested. Whey you bring  things back online, be sure to keep the shoreline unplugged. 

Bad, dry batteries will not absorb the AC ripple from your converter/charger device and can cause strange problems. 

I know I'm grasping at straws here and am not familiar with your (multiplex) system. But the EMS system is pretty simple. 

As suggested, in an emergency you can bypass the circuits the EMS controls. I do not know if removing the small fuse on the board will make it go into any default mode. 

[Tom Cherry]

Myron brings up some good points about common issues with MPX systems...  That post prompted me to provide Paul with the prints that pertains to the two separate...but MAYBE...MONACO DID IT AGAIN...  Systems.

In 2009 and I thought earlier, Monaco, at least on the Camelots, actually "Separated" the MPX system from the EMS.  Earlier....and how early and such, I have a vague memory, the Hybrid MPX system was configured with the usual Intellitec Modules and lighted key pad switches, but the "Clock" (Term that the late Bill Groves used) was actually stolen or was "tapped into the EMS system".  Thus, there was, I was told, a circuit from the Hybrid MPX (no CPU) system to the EMS module.  That clock or whatever (Frank and Paul probably can elaborate) sort of DROVE the Hybrid system.  Then, later on, and I just verified, in 2008, Monaco and Intellitec incorporated an IPX Module.  That sort of ran things....but was not a programmed unit or device....like the CPU of the Dynasties.

SO..  If this was an early 2008 or so...maybe the EMS and the MPX were or are connected and there is not an IPX.   OK.....we DO have the 2008 Camelot/Scepter Prints....I just did not have them saved to my laptop.  I checked them just now...here is the link for Paul

The 2008 prints show the IPX Module in all the MPX drawings.  SO the files that I posted are the same...and he can access them or maybe has the 2008 set as well.

It also depends on what Paul is calling FLICKERING.  Mine have behaved strangely over the years....and all, except a switch malfunction, was self inflicted or a matter of OPPS.  If Paul is describing the dimming up and down of the lights on the key pads....ODDS ARE (my experience) then the MPX system was either "zapped" or had a voltage drop out...was resetting...and then dropped out...  This happens when you have either a FAULT in the latching relay...(Salesman's Switch) as in the contacts are corroded...OR you stupidly don't turn off the House switch.  I forgot and pulled the Jumpers...and then reconnected.  The 12 VDC circuit was then activated.  But, the jiggling or the arcing and then having a brief (nano second?) OFF....will drive the MPX (both on the Dynasty and the Hybrid) crazy.  The Bootup as started.  OPPS...it is briefly interrupted...then restarted...but it is already STILL in some phase of startup or shutdown...and then you get a helter skelter BOOT.

Some circuits on my system worked off some keypads...but not all.  Some key pads were lighted....some were NOT.  I had actually started to reboot but had called Frank...in a panic...I'll admit.  He advised REBOOTING...which was going on.  We then surmised that the on and off arcing of the jumpers had upset it.

I also know from a fact...that will drive my C7 Vette's system bananas...  I added a 2 wire connection to the battery to plug in a maintainer and the next time I had it serviced... OMG...what did you do?  The codes all cleared...but that temporary tightening down of the rings played havoc with the diagnostics.

Hopefully, Paul will report back.  After thinking about this...  If his batteries are OK....and his issues were ONLY in the EMS and the MPX, then I am more convinced that he had a temporary power OUTAGE (maybe the Salesman's relay) or whatever...and the two Intellitec Modules did not take nicely.

I have had to, on at least 5 occasions, reboot my EMS system as it was NOT working...  

Let's see what he reports...

12 volt systems ALERNATIVE - 2009 Camelot.pdf Multiplex Ckt Breakers.pdf Multiplex switch panels.pdf Multiplex.pdf 12 V Energy Management.pdf

[WilPaul35]

I am working on it now.  Batteries have all be checked visually and with meter.  The flickering I am seeing is amber on all of the switch pads next to the buttons. I will try to get a picture shortly.  None of the circuits funcion from any of the keypads. Coach is an earlier 08, built in 10/2007.  Had all power disconnected overnight. Working on the salesman switch relay jumper now as Tom described earlier.

Tom, can you clarify what you are calling the "jumpers"? Want to make sure I am not causing additional issues.  

[Tom Cherry]

6 minutes ago, WilPaul35 said:

I am working on it now.  Batteries have all be checked visually and with meter.  The flickering I am seeing is amber on all of the switch pads next to the buttons. I will try to get a picture shortly.  None of the circuits funcion from any of the keypads. Coach is an earlier 08, built in 10/2007.  Had all power disconnected overnight. Working on the salesman switch relay jumper now as Tom described earlier.

Tom, can you clarify what you are calling the "jumpers"? Want to make sure I am not causing additional issues.  

OK....first

Jumpers are the Jumpers between the Negative and Positive on the House Bank.  When you charge and then discharge (Exercise) the House batteries, you need to let them enter a state of REST and RECOVERY.  The easiest way, for me, is to pull the Jumpers on each set of two.  Then you measure the voltage and also get better readings on each battery. Thus, when I did that and then reconnected...there was an on/off/on/off....cycle while the jumpers were contacting the posts...so that drove the IPX and the Modules crazy...

 

Next up. 

I would pull the panel with the 3 Intellitec Modules.  If you look at the prints, there is a bank of Circuit Breakers back there.  They vibrate loose over time.  MANY have had issues...varies in what form,...some actually had NO power to one Intellitec Module.  Tighten them up.  Tighten every connection you see back there.

This is a MUST DO PM for any Camelot or Scepter owner...EVENTUALLY, you will have this from the OEM build...

OK.. after you have done that...

Then do the rebooting.  

Just CURIOUS....have you pulled the panel off the main and done the EMS reboot.  That SHOULD clear things up.  Always HAS for me.

NOW...if the flickering...and I ASSUME it is not the hold in and dim up and down...but a distinct "flicker"....then Paul Whittle and Frank McElroy are the experts on HOW the Intellitec system works....

OK...IF you blow up the System Print....and follow the circuit.  There is a 125 A FUSE that feeds the Salesman's Solenoid.  On the OUTPUT side, there is a lead going to the Terminal Strip that you will find...where the circuit breakers are connected.  This also FEEDS the 12 House Fuse Panel.  ALL of these connections are vulnerable.  SO...follow the PM and see.

BTW...have your tightened the main lug on each of the MPX and also the connections on the IPX Module..  ANY high resistance connection can cause havoc...

Past that...  as long as the 125 Amp fuse is OK...then it will take more digging...

Let us know...once you have done the PM and jumpered the Solenoid and then REBOOTED or brought up the system ...

Good Luck...

 

[Tom Cherry]

UPDATE..

Talked to Paul twice.  He has done all the PM.  He rebooted the system. No JOY….didn’t ask about the EMS.

Communicated with our two experts.  Paul advised that he has owned several rigs and the last was a Diplomat and he does high voltage work…so has the expertise.

Both our folks speculated on a bad key pad.  Paul said that when he bought the rig… there was one section..all on a slide, that had all inoperable or not lighted key pads.  The advice was…plug and unplug all the key pads that were i inoperable and then reboot.  If NO JOY….unplug all of them…reboot.  That should fix or indicate a void or open circuit in the 3 wire MPX Data buss.  If, with all unplugged….the rest works….then take down….plug in one switch….at a time and isolate the switch. A defective or shorted switch can play havoc with the data buss.

That’s it…Paul is still experimenting….

[MyronTruex]

Where is the voltage regulation being done for all this Multiplex stuff?

If there are tired electrolytics in a power supply circuit, the loading and unloading by "pulling cards" could load things down momentarily and enough to drive circuits bonkers. Actually seeing a power supply voltage sink momentarily can be quite difficult. A digital voltmeter does not stand a change.

I know I'm just tossing things into the air here. But sometimes even a goofy suggestion can lead to the resolution. 

I think I answered my own question. Looking at the first schematic Tom posted I can see the path of the power that leads back to the salesman switch. However, I would want a very close inspection of every connection along that path. Twelve volts has very little push and just a fraction of a turn on a nut can cause issues. 

Edited May 27 by MyronTruex
Discovery research.

[WilPaul35]

Ok, think I might be on the right track.  Have done everthing Tom and I have discussed, no improvement.  Opened up all of the wiring access looking for IPX control module and not finding it where print says should be located.  Tom mentioned something about the ems and IPX being possibly intergrated in pre '08 coaches. This coach was built 10/07.  After pulling ems board out for closer look find I have an red led illuminated that says IPX Fault.  Is this board bad?  We did have lightning the other night while conneceted to shore power but didn't think much about it because I was using a surge protector.

 

[Dr4Film]

It does appear that your EMS board may have failed. You can have it rebuilt or purchase a new one. Just get the model number off of the board and Google it for vendors.

I always disconnect my shore cord when there is lightning close by.  Although, that won't help a direct lightning strike.

[MyronTruex]

Hve you measured the DC voltage on each end of that fuse on the EMS board?

 

[Tom Cherry]

Talked to Paul this morning.  Research shows that the 2007 Scepter/Camelots were the FIRST year of the MPX lighting systems.  UNFORTUNATELY, there is not, or at least I could NOT find it, a good print in the 2007 Camelot/Scepter file that shows the MPX system.

From past history, dealing with my own system, talking to M&M and also a LOT of discussions here...  The first HYBRID MPX systems used the IPX or CLOCK from the EMS.  That was later updated or replaced and there was (is) a separate IPX.  

M&M said that they made kits or such to retrofit an older EMS panel (the 50 Amp Panel) with the newer (Mine is a 750) EMS.  They said that the early years had failures in the MPX, but were traceable back to the EMS...and they always updated that.

Paul has this information and is now doing some more research.  The later version, like mine, is probably, the simpliest...as well as most reliable fix.  Update the failed EMS to a newer version....and then add the standalone MPX into the system.

Bill Groves was more of the expert on this...but he is, RIP, gone.

That's the status this morning.  Paul is back at work and will be doing more research as time permits for the next week or so, including getting, I think some help from folks offline....and googling and also talking, maybe, to M&M.

If anyone is well versed or has a print of the early MPX and the EMS, that would be great.

Progress...as in....he KNOWS has an MPX Failure light and can NOT find nor locate the MPX standalone MPX that was used later on....on later model 2008's...he has, most likely, the early version...

[pwhittle]

The red IPX fault light means that the PMC bus is not functioning correctly.

Try unplugging the PMC bus from the EMS. I suspect it is the right hand connector in your picture.

if the red fault light stays on, you either need to replace the EMS, or add an MPX Master to supply the PMC bus signaling.

https://intellitec.com/multiplex-control-master/

If the red light goes out, plug it back in and start unplugging everything on the bus (keypads and output modules) until the light goes out. Leave the last thing unplugged, and plug everything else back in to make sure it is just one device.

it is possible that all the receivers are damaged. I saw that on a Wanderlodge where they had accidentally shorted 120V to the PMC bus. They had to replace every switch pad and module, including the CPU.

Paul

Edited May 29 by pwhittle

[WilPaul35]

Unplugged bus from EMS and light goes out.  Plugged back in and light comes back on.  Have unplugged each switch pad and light still on, working on accessing output modules. 

[pwhittle]

Progress!

[WilPaul35]

Update.  Talked to Chris at M&M RV Electronics and we are in the process of making a couple of upgrades that should clear up the issue.  Going to be separating the MDX from the EMS board. Chris says that will take care of the muliplex issue for me.

Will update again after upgrade is complete.

Thanks for all of the assistance with this.

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, WilPaul35 said:

Update.  Talked to Chris at M&M RV Electronics and we are in the process of making a couple of upgrades that should clear up the issue.  Going to be separating the MDX from the EMS board. Chris says that will take care of the muliplex issue for me.

Will update again after upgrade is complete.

Thanks for all of the assistance with this.

Sounds like a plan to me.  Chris has commented on that in the past.  Maybe you meant separating the IPX (MDX?) from the board.  If you unplugged the connection from the EMS board....that, you said, I thought...  FIXED the EMS....as in the IPX (or whatever LIGHT was on.  

NOW...curiosity...

When, you removed the MPX (Multiplex Lighting connector) from the EMS board.  Did the EMS function and work OK?  If so...then good.  If NOT are you purchasing or installing a NEW, higher REV, EMS Board and also purchasing the IPX Module and adding that to the MPX lighting....like is shown on the later prints.

Thanks...keep us posted and also exactly what you did.  This was not a common problem...but did pop up on older MH's knowing HOW to fix and update.  That will benefit all members.

 

[WilPaul35]

Yes, meant IPX.  When the connection was unplugged IPX fault light went out but EMs was still not functioning.   Chris is getting me a list of parts around so I can get them ordered and installed.  I will update when completed.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, WilPaul35 said:

Yes, meant IPX.  When the connection was unplugged IPX fault light went out but EMs was still not functioning.   Chris is getting me a list of parts around so I can get them ordered and installed.  I will update when completed.

Is he recommending you separate the MPX AND installing the stand alone IPX.  That seems like the better or more logical solution.

19 hours ago, RoadTripper2084 said:

Can’t DELETE - IGNORE 

 

[WilPaul35]

Yes, that is the plan.

[WilPaul35]

UPDATE

I have part of the issue resolved.  After several conversations with Chris at M&M RV Electronice I have added a new control master for the IPX and isolated the EMS board and display from the IPX circuit.  EMS now works properly.  Still have an IPX fault but believe it is narrowed down to the portion of the circuit going to the front street side slide.  Prior to having the initial problem I had noticed that keypad over dining table (only one in slide) did not work.  Did not notice this until after our first trip a few weeks after purchasing coach and shortly before issue started.  Now thinking IPX harness has been damaged somewhere and hope I can get to it.