2009 Camelot. EMS & Electrical issues….Stumped

[Dbircky]

My 2009 Monaco Camelot has a strange electrical problem.    On the generator everything runs fine.   On shore power, the intellic system shows about 19 amps being used.    However only the fridge is running.   If I switch to propane the amperage doesn't change.   I turn each of the breakers off in an attempt to isolate the problem.    Here's where it gets weird.    The front a/c appears to be the culprit.   When o turn that breaker off the intellic screen goes dark.  Bit the center a/c and!or the fridge continue to operate.   Here's where it gets weirder, when I shut off and turned back on rear switches, the usual clicks and clunks aren't there.  I'm thinking the big boy decided to die???

for the last week when plugged into the 30 amp plug (no 50 amp available here) the 40 amp remote breaker trips but not the 30amp breaker in the post.    

I'm stumped.   Ideas?

[jacwjames]

The EMS Intellitec system uses power from a couple of the breakers or the display.  In my case it's the washer dryer breaker.  I just leave all my breakers on. 

I have a progressive surge protector the scrolls the voltage, amps, htz and faults continually.  Even with nothing on in the coach is usually shows I'm using ~9 amps on one leg.  I think this may be the charger continually working. 

[waterskier_1]

As Jim says, all the breakers need to be on, even if you are not using that circuit, since the Intellitec system does.  Also, the Big Boy is in the 12 Volt DC side, and only is used for connecting the Chassis and House battery banks together.  It would have nothing to do with your problem.  I also would confirm the shore power is what you think it is (50 Amps, or 30 Amp).  Also, are there any other circuits that don't appear to work correctly?  You may be getting only one leg of the AC power to the panel, could be a bad shore power, bad connectors/cables or bad transfer switch.

  -Rick N.

 

[MyronTruex]

As mentioned, the big boy is not associated.

Go to the transfer switch and check incoming voltages there or open AC breaker panel and check there. It might be a missing leg coming in.

Since generator is providing power to both legs, starting at the transfer switch would be my first stop. 

[Tom Cherry]

13 hours ago, Dbircky said:

My 2009 Monaco Camelot has a strange electrical problem.    On the generator everything runs fine.   On shore power, the intellic system shows about 19 amps being used.    However only the fridge is running.   If I switch to propane the amperage doesn't change.   I turn each of the breakers off in an attempt to isolate the problem.    Here's where it gets weird.    The front a/c appears to be the culprit.   When o turn that breaker off the intellic screen goes dark.  Bit the center a/c and!or the fridge continue to operate.   Here's where it gets weirder, when I shut off and turned back on rear switches, the usual clicks and clunks aren't there.  I'm thinking the big boy decided to die???

for the last week when plugged into the 30 amp plug (no 50 amp available here) the 40 amp remote breaker trips but not the 30amp breaker in the post.    

I'm stumped.   Ideas?

From the top. All great and logical responses.

As a 09 Camelot owner, my insight.  First a little bit of “explanation” or education.  If you know this, please don’t take it personally….a large majority of MH owners don’t and power and tripping and such is a common queation.

The MH is a Two Line, 120 VAC 50 Amp critter.  Your 10KW generator is the equivalent…now, the breaker on the generator might be 45…I can’t recall.  BUT the genny is Two line, 120 VAC and close to 50 Amps.  Translated…. You have the potential for up to 100 Amps of power.  With a 30 amp service, you only have ONE line and it is only 30 Amps…and that is only 30% of the needed power to operate like it was intended.  I have used this example as folks don’t relate to POWER.

If you had a swimming pool and needed to top it off and had TWO hoses…each one was a 1” Diameter…a nice big one….then it you will get a lot of water.  BUT, if you only one ONE hose and it is a 5/8” diameter….it will take over THREE times as long to refill the pool.  That is the difference between a full 50 Amp TWO LINE service and a single 30 Amp.  It is NOT the ratio of 50 to 30.  OK…now, back to reality.

You need to read and understand HOW to set up the Inverter…. Here is how you do it…..keep reading and scroll down.

First is the SHORE.  That confuseds folks and half the inverters are not set up right as folks “tinkered and tweaked” without reading Magnum 101 or the mnual.  Harsh comment…but reality.

You have a 30 Amp breaker feeding the Magnum.  Regardless of if you are on 50A or 30 A, the BREAKER in the main panel is the determining factor or value. Push SHORE set it to 30.  Unless you try to run on a 20 A outlet, never change it….  BTW, don’t be surprised if you can’t run on a 20 AMP GFCI receptacle….with say a 100ft drop cord.  IT DON’T work.  The GFCI will trip…no further explanation on how I know this and the “education” Magnum gave me on that fateful day…LOL.

Next up, the comment about charging is probably the reason you see the amperage…now, first….the other comment.  The EMS REQUIRES ALL the breakers on the main panel to be on.  Trust us…strange things happen that would baffle an Electrical Engineer with a PhD.  Turn all ON.

You need to read the above PDF and do this.  First…go through the SHORE & SETUP functions and write down what they are.  Don’t change.  Then go back through and set yours up.  This PDF was written for your OEM remote.  If you have the newer remote…it is covered also.

WHEN you are on 50 Amp, i never keep my inverter set at 100% charging.  It is older.  It gets hotter.  It only has a limited life….like a 70 YO running a daily marathon….premature FAILURE.

I use 80%…if really hot…turn down to 70%.  The inverter is like your phone.  Hot day..100 or 90%…like putting the phone on the dash….it heats up internally.  

NOW, ON 30 AMP….turn it down…I go to 40% or lower.  If you try to run just ONE AC, you are using more than HALF of the 30 Amps….

NOW…IF ALL THAT DOES NOT RECTIFY THE READING….RESET THE EMS. Disconnect the shore. Cover the solar or disconnect the battery terminals on the controller in the last bay on the passenger side….the one next to the propane tank.  Trip off the generator breaker on the genny up front.

Remove the brown cover.  The EMS is the circuit board on the lower right.  Has 3 (memory) wiring connections.  Each different. Pull all 3. There is a 3 amp fuse, sometimes buried behind a wire loom.  Pull that fuse.

Get a large handle screwdriver and a shop towel (mechanic’s blue or red rag). Put two wraps on the handle.  Now tighten EVERY screw or connection in the panel.  This needs to be done every 3 years or so.  

Now…go down to where the inverter is and take off the cover of the ATS.  IF THE ATS IS OEM & SAYS IOTA 50R….YOU GOT A BIG TIME PROBLEM.  That ATS is dangerous and a fire hazard….report back if it is….

NOW do the same, even if an Iota.  Tighten every screw.  Some of the IOTA were #2 square drive.  Push down on back of the handle, usually with your left hand’s palm…to keep the bit or tip engaged in the slot or recess.  Give it all your right hand has got. Yes…that is the way to do it if you don’t have a cakibrated INCH POUND torque wrench…  

OK…your 3 year ELECTRICAL AC pm is complete.  Button everything back up.  Go upstairs…replace fuse…replace connectors and cover.  Uncover or enable solar.  Turn genny breaker on.  I’d actually turn on Genny and let everything boot back up from there.

NOW…as to the 40.  There is most likely a loose connection somewhere between the 30 amp receptacle and the breaker and the line to the 40 amp breaker.

BOTTOM LINE…You may be overloading the 30 amp and the 40 is an older breaker and more crotchety.  Folks tend to overload a 30, as stated earlier thinking they have 60% (30 divided by 50) of full power..

Thats it. Fix and advise…

 

[Dbircky]

Thanks for the information Tom.     I'll try everything you suggested.    However, I've been on the exact same site since the beginning of April and untiL last week everything worked fine.   My panel is always set to 30 amp.    I only shut down the breakers to isolate where the 18 amp draw is coming from.    All are now on, with no improvement.   I replace the iota a few years ago with a model 40350RVC ATS.  Haven't touch any settings since.  
I replaced the 40 amp square d breaker on the main box and now when I try to run tge a/c the panel shows I'm pulling 33 total amps.    After a while the pedestal 30 amp breaker tripped.  
I'll read the manual again tonight and follow each step exactly.     I've already checked the connections behind the brown panel and all were tight.   I'll open it back up to look for that 3 amp fuse.  I'm still showing 17 amo being used and the batteries are at 14.1v on asborb charging.   They are full of liquid too.  
Thank you and stay tuned.  

[Tom Cherry]

35 minutes ago, Dbircky said:

Thanks for the information Tom.     I'll try everything you suggested.    However, I've been on the exact same site since the beginning of April and untiL last week everything worked fine.   My panel is always set to 30 amp.    I only shut down the breakers to isolate where the 18 amp draw is coming from.    All are now on, with no improvement.   I replace the iota a few years ago with a model 40350RVC ATS.  Haven't touch any settings since.  
I replaced the 40 amp square d breaker on the main box and now when I try to run tge a/c the panel shows I'm pulling 33 total amps.    After a while the pedestal 30 amp breaker tripped.  
I'll read the manual again tonight and follow each step exactly.     I've already checked the connections behind the brown panel and all were tight.   I'll open it back up to look for that 3 amp fuse.  I'm still showing 17 amo being used and the batteries are at 14.1v on asborb charging.   They are full of liquid too.  
Thank you and stay tuned.  

OK, first of all, your inverter/charger is pulling 10 amps - 120 VAC.  Multiply VDC times Amps.  That is watts.  Watts is WATTS is watts.  Then divide watts by 120 and you get the AC load.  As I said, the charger is charging and pulling amps.  If you push the Charger Button, that should drop the AC load. 84 amps is the top end of Absorb Chsrging.  Your batteries are barely out of the BULK…which means that they are depleted or really drawn down.  You might switch to Genny for a few hours….3 max.  That should charge them,  if that doesn’t, then the batteries are not accepting a charge.  You need to read the Battery 101 to fully understand.

I can’t explain fhe circuit breaker tripping, but odds would be close. NOW….if the breaker tripped at 33 amps….that is want it is supposed to do,  the front AC is probably getting worn.  It was the most used.  Mine it….they all are, so the full load amps is above normal…maybe in the 18/19 range.  Add in the charging amps.  BINGO, it doesn’t take a lot to kick it up.  Your heaters on the Dometic will pull at least 4.

MY THOUGHTS.  You said all was well on GENNY.  And IF you were on 50 A, all would be well.

That’s my analysis…. 

[jacwjames]

In 2014 my front AC started to trip it's breaker.  So while on 30 amp shore power I could monitor the amps and saw that it was pulling higher amps then the rear AC unit.  Sometimes on start up it would trip the breaker. 

So when I got home I removed the front AC shroud and tried to turn the motor by hand, it was almost froze up, I could barely turn it.  So I found a replacement motor and changed it out, at the time $125. 

How old are your batteries, have you tested each individually for voltage? 

[MyronTruex]

My 2009 Monaco Camelot has a strange electrical problem.    On the generator everything runs fine.   On shore power, the intellic system shows about 19 amps being used.    However only the fridge is running.   I made the assumption that your shoreline was also 50 amps. After reading one of your follow ups that is not the case. Your charger alone if set on a high charge as mentioned by Tom can draw a lot of power. When my batteries are full and just being maintained, I turn the Knob on the EMS panel to about 10-20%..Your refer cycles on and off so trying to see any increase in current when you switch from propane to electric is going to be tricky. You should always run on propane while on 30 amps in my opinion. You have a very limited supply. And when you are drawing over a certain amount over a long enough time, the EMS will limit you to 24 amps and then begin load shedding. If I switch to propane the amperage doesn't change.

  I turn each of the breakers off in an attempt to isolate the problem.    Here's where it gets weird.   Yep, it can get real weird because of the design so as Tom mentions, don’t leave breakers off. The front a/c appears to be the culprit.  No, it’s just the circuit the EMS looks to monitor.  When o turn that breaker off the intellic screen goes dark.  Bit the center a/c and!or the fridge continue to operate.   Here's where it gets weirder, when I shut off and turned back on rear switches, the usual clicks and clunks aren't there.  

for the last week when plugged into the 30 amp plug (no 50 amp available here) the 40 amp remote breaker trips but not the 30amp breaker in the post.    I don’t quite understand this one. What is a remote breaker??  If there is a 40 amp breaker feeding your 30 amp post that is tripping, it is getting overloaded somewhere in-between or the breaker is faulty. 

I'm stumped.   Ideas?

 

[amphi_sc]

How's the water level in all your batteries?

[Tom Cherry]

7 hours ago, MyronTruex said:

My 2009 Monaco Camelot has a strange electrical problem.    On the generator everything runs fine.   On shore power, the intellic system shows about 19 amps being used.    However only the fridge is running.   I made the assumption that your shoreline was also 50 amps. After reading one of your follow ups that is not the case. Your charger alone if set on a high charge as mentioned by Tom can draw a lot of power. When my batteries are full and just being maintained, I turn the Knob on the EMS panel to about 10-20%..Your refer cycles on and off so trying to see any increase in current when you switch from propane to electric is going to be tricky. You should always run on propane while on 30 amps in my opinion. You have a very limited supply. And when you are drawing over a certain amount over a long enough time, the EMS will limit you to 24 amps and then begin load shedding. If I switch to propane the amperage doesn't change.

  I turn each of the breakers off in an attempt to isolate the problem.    Here's where it gets weird.   Yep, it can get real weird because of the design so as Tom mentions, don’t leave breakers off. The front a/c appears to be the culprit.  No, it’s just the circuit the EMS looks to monitor.  When o turn that breaker off the intellic screen goes dark.  Bit the center a/c and!or the fridge continue to operate.   Here's where it gets weirder, when I shut off and turned back on rear switches, the usual clicks and clunks aren't there.  

for the last week when plugged into the 30 amp plug (no 50 amp available here) the 40 amp remote breaker trips but not the 30amp breaker in the post.    I don’t quite understand this one. What is a remote breaker??  If there is a 40 amp breaker feeding your 30 amp post that is tripping, it is getting overloaded somewhere in-between or the breaker is faulty. 

I'm stumped.   Ideas?

 

Also, as a followup to Myron's post, the EMS is actually monitoring the NEUTRAL.  SO, here is how that works....most don't know this.  When you are on a 50 Amp circuit or you have your Generator ON, it is actually a 220 VAC setup.  Line 1 and Line 2 are drawing current.  The EMS is NOT MEASURING or ADDING up the current.  You only have THREE WIRES (plus a Ground).  So, the COMMON or NEUTRAL or WHITE is carrying the OTHER side of the load.  BUT, this is called an OUT OF PHASE circuit.  That means...  Line 1 in on ONE side and Line 2 is on the OTHER.  This is a sine wave Alternating CURRENT.  The Neutral, if the loads were evenly balanced at say 20 Amps each....  SO suppose the Front and the Rear AC's are the ONLY thing ON.  Each is pulling 20 Amps.  The LOAD is a TOTAL of 40 Amps...but EVENLY split.  If you put an Ammeter on the NEUTRAL, you will get ZERO AMPS.  WHY?? The Neutral's current flow is changing direction 60 times per second.  SO...the first time...you have 20 Amps in one direction on Line 2, then it reverses and you have 20 Amps, in the OPPOSITE direction on Line 2.  The SUM or technically, the Algebraic SUM is zero.

NOW WHY is that important.  PURE and SIMPLE.  If the MH did NOT have a 220 Amp or TWO Lines....OUT OF PHASE service....and just had Line 1 and Line 2 on the same side....then the Wire would have to be TWO pieces or conductors of #6 and #1 (WAY BIGGER). The HOT line 1 and line 2 would be on the #6 and the Neutral would be on the #1. That's because the Neutral has to carry the SUM of each load.

OK....GOT ALL THAT?  Fine...you're ready for the POP QUIZ....  Good Luck...  LOL>

NOW, here is how the EMS works.  The EMS monitors the NEUTRAL or WHITE lead only.  It has a torroidal (SP) Circular ring (think an oversized ring on your finger where there is space all the way around.  That is how an Ammeter measures current.  It is a CLAMP ON...not two leads.

SO, when you are on 50 Amp or your 220 VAC Genny, the current flow on the neutral is the difference between the loads.  Since you have 50 amps....then the MAX it can be is 50.  NOW, the EMS has two wires (J1 and J2 memory).  J1 is attached to Line 1 and J2 is attached to Line 2.  When the EMS, which is always monitoring, measures the VOLTAGE on Line 1 and Line 2 and there is 220 (240) VAC.  BINGO.... it says.  HEY....this guy has 240 VOLTS (it is ASSUMED that comes from a 50 Amp Service).  I can take a break.  He can run all day.  

BUT, when you use a 30 Amp service....it is a ONE SIDED (some call it one phase) system. It is ONE HOT and ONE Neutral.  BINGO....the Neutral will carry the FULL LOAD.  So, now, the EMS does NOT read 220 VAC and it goes to work or wakes up.  If you notice when you are ON 50 A (220 setup) the EMS is blank....it is NOT measuring or working nor will it SHED anything.  BUT, when you are on a 120...which is actually splitting the 120 VAC into Line 1 and Line 2....the EMS KNOWS that it has to work...so it monitors and shed and you see the CURRENT on the Neutral.

NOW....this really blows folks minds.  On the 40 Ft Camelots, Monaco put in an 8 KW genny.  We do NOT have the THIRD AC...  BUT, our Genny's are NOT 220 VAC.  They are 120.  BUT, then DO have TWO LINES....My Genny has a TWO POLE 35 Amp Breaker.  Thus, I can get 35 Amps on line 1 and line 2.  BUT...OPPS....now the current is ADDITIVE (Algebraically).  SO, NOW, even on GENNY, my EMS is working.  The current load is what is being pulled on the Neutral. IF I have TWO AC's on....the EMS will read 40 AMPS (the sum of each one running).

Confusing...  Sort of...but once you get your head around it....it makes sense. 

The ONLY REASON for this detail is that a 40 Ft Camelot or Scepter or anyone with a 7.5 or 8 KW genny is gonna say.  WAIT A MINUTE...my EMS reads current and is working when on GENNY....and they are right.

YOUR EMS is disabled....as in it is on recess break.  SO, you can NOT see the actual loads.

NOW, many of us have surge suppressors.  Mine has TWO current Taps or rings. I can see, at ALL times, what each line (1 and 2) are pulling.  It does NOT measure or monitor the NEUTRAL.

Just a little more information so you can understand what we are saying.

You are overloading the circuit. If you shut off the CHARGER section or turn down, as I suggested the Charging Rate to say 30 or 40%, you will see a precipitous drop in the amperage and you will be OK.

That's it.  I (and WE, it THINK) don't think anything is broken...except your batteries were either VERY low or they are "not good"

I can tell you from first hand experience.  You MAY have TWO bad batteries.  One in each set of the series.  If you pulled the Jumpers....and measured the voltage of each battery, there is a HIGH probability that ONE will read around 4.X VDC. That means that ONE of the cells (three of them) has shorted out. 

I measured all batteries, with the Jumpers removed.  THREE read 6.X VDC but one read 4.X.  READ UP ON IT.  That meant that one cell was shorted out (the lead coating on the plates had flaked off and built up in the bottom and shorted the cell...thus only TWO cells.  BUT that ONE cell was like a BIG RESISTOR. It prevented the OTHER battery from charging.  SO the OTHER battery, hooked up to in in series, was NOT charging.

NEXT UP...I had a Hydrometer. I checked the cells of the OTHER 3.  OPPS....two bad cells in ONE battery...would eventually have shorted out.  SO, that battery was also TOAST and was a big Resistor.  THAT is why I had constant charging.

I actually took out the TWO bad batteries.  I hooked the two good ones and then did some research and figured out that I needed NEW ones and bought Trojans....

MY THEORY...you have at least TWO less than perfect batteries.  If you tested each (BTW, carrying them into a shop and having them tested with the LOAD TESTER doesn't work.  The NAPA and other shops DO NOT KNOW THIS....Interstate DOES).  So, if you can test all the batteries with a VOM and a Hydrometer....then if you  have TWO that are marginally OK, then hook them up as one bank.  Keep the other two in place...but don't hook up the jumper.  IT WILL WORK.

That's my "MORNING" thoughts....Good Luck.

[Dave Shackelford]

On 6/18/2024 at 5:46 PM, waterskier_1 said:

As Jim says, all the breakers need to be on, even if you are not using that circuit, since the Intellitec system does.  Also, the Big Boy is in the 12 Volt DC side, and only is used for connecting the Chassis and House battery banks together.  It would have nothing to do with your problem.  I also would confirm the shore power is what you think it is (50 Amps, or 30 Amp).  Also, are there any other circuits that don't appear to work correctly?  You may be getting only one leg of the AC power to the panel, could be a bad shore power, bad connectors/cables or bad transfer switch.

  -Rick N.

 

Also, Check the electrical cord reel. It uses brushes internally and they can go bad. Reel in/out the cord a few times and see if anything changes.

[Tom Cherry]

30 minutes ago, Dave Shackelford said:

Also, Check the electrical cord reel. It uses brushes internally and they can go bad. Reel in/out the cord a few times and see if anything changes.

Good POINT.  This is especially true on the Camelot/Scepters or any other MH that has a spring contact reel.  The issue is PULLING OUT ALL THE WAY.  We have had many full timers that had major issues.  After a lot of experimentation and member feedback, the issue is that if one stays on a site for an extended period of time and never moves or changes the cord position, then the contacts will get corroded.

The SOLUTION.  Never pull out the cord to full extension unless needed.  It is better to pull out to whatever is needed.  BUT, if you are going to be tethered for more than a month...and that is an "ARBITRARY" or guestimate based on many reports, then it would be a good idea to pull out the cord and retract a few times.....full cycle.

The burnishing or cleaning of the contacts by frequent use seems to keep them clean.

Case in point.  I have over 600 NIGHTS on my motor home and that breaks down to 250 setups...so the reel was cycled about 500 times.  BUT, if you add in the out of storage and back to storage for the trips....that is another 350...so I have about 850 ONE WAY cycles. I have NEVER had an issue... 

WHILE WE"RE ON THIS TOPIC...Again Camelot owners also report this....the Plugs or the SHORE male plug are very easy to abuse....especially as they get some age. I had to replace mine...it would have been a disaster had it NOT been for the Surge Protector. It shut down... I opened a bay door and the gas strut pushed it open. It barely TAPPED the plug.  That hit jarred the plug and the internal Crimped (not SOLDERED) Neutral broke loose.  OPEN NEUTRAL and If one does NOT know about that.... GOOGLE.

So, I replaced it.  BUT, the Boy Scout had to use a USED one...so I carry a NEW spare.  I also carry a tube of Dow Corning "Insulating" or Potting Compound.  After a few days of using the plug, you then RETIGHTEN the connections and POT or SEAL the interior.  That is BETTER than the OEM.

YES...each of these minor things can create a HIGH resistance connection...

Thanks for bring this up...