96 EVO Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Your money, but, that transfer switch you have does everything a portable PI-EMS does! Like Richard mentioned, adding the remote display would be a bonus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 OK….follow up and background as well as the most probable cause for Miriam’s issue. Spent time on phone with Miriam last night. Called Progressive this morning. Then followup with Miriam and also sorted out a few nuances. I may have skimmed, but the real issues were sort of in the background. She also clarified another key point. Was on 30 Amp power. AC on. Gas refrigerator on AC. Magnum charge rate was set high or not scaled back. Was running washer….has separate dryer…not on. The entire system or local grid blipped…as in on and off several times or at least a noticeable blip and interruption. AGS kicked on even though the 30 second timer had not timed down?? A puzzlement…but obviously some “unusual” power blips or surges or such. AC and Washer never shut down. Interior light (12 VDC) did flicker…but came back on….potential battery issue. She had not disabled Search Watts. Progressive showed an OPEN NEUTRAL. Miriam, as a precaution let the genny run and checked it. But she STILL had 30 A power….the error or fault codes were her concern. She unplugged and then plugged back in….still had the open neutral fault. But, the LED (red) was faint. This was an error code that could have been a result of a built up charge. THEN all the posting. This morning, as she was going to test the Progressive on an adjoining pedestal with a different 30-50 dogbone….all was well. FIXED ITSELF. I did NOT know that until after I talked to Progressive the first time. Their tech support guy was great….listened and commented and theorized…..so, here is what he and I concluded….not knowing that she DID have power but had error codes….which disappeared…. OK…bit of information for those who help and also have different MH. That Beaver is a “blend” of features and systems that I don’t ever remember reading about. 2003….but has an early version Intellitec MPX. Only TWO output modules…not 3 like the Camelots and has a large free standing Master Control module….NOT an IPX. Has NO Intellitec EMS system. It has the Dual IN - Dual OUT, with subpanel system like on the Dynasty’s. Also, the Surgeguard full featured ATS was standard….but no remote monitoring. Did not get to ask about an Aladdin?.?. The PO did a major rework of the HVAC system. Pulled out the FF fan in the rear galley area and put in a THIRD Dometic….and stole power from the Block Heater circuit. FWIW…Beaver never out a FF in the hallway between the galley and bedroom. The only FF left in toilet. SO…keep this in mind if advice is given…this is a “rare bird”….then modified and even more customized… OK….this is the gist of the call to Progressive…I made one….then got information from Miriam as she described the lights a little more concisely….so TWO tech support folks both agreed….. The simple 6 light PI surge suppressor is also a PEDESTAL Tester. Miriam was using that feature, but she was not turning back off the breaker before she plugged in the 30-50 adapter. Is changing that. Therefore, the PI is designed for “no load” testing of a Pedestal. The PI is strictly a “remote” monitoring device. It has surge MOV’s but NO contactor….like the HW50C….so, good bad or indifferent, it WILL allow substandard power to be passed on. BUT you will have idiotic lights…. We discussed the fact that when she plugged in the adapter, she got the error code. BTW….if there was a OPEN Neutral, the PI would display that regardless of on a 30 or 50. SOME folks think that having upstream MOV will protect their downstream high $$ ATS….NO evidence of that….but it is commonly done…. We concluded that there must be a “load” or high resistance issue in the 6 points or connections from the PI Neutral to the Neutral attachment to the receptacle inside the pedestal. He also stated that it was not necessary and redundant to have two suppressors in series. They had discussed internally but did not know that NEC and UL, at least several years ago, had said NOT to daisy chain 120 VAC units like a suppressor power strip used with a UPS suppressor. Agreed with the testing steps that Miriam planned to do this morning. BOTTOM LINE…..the gist of follow up comments from Progressive…. The dogbones were probably overloaded. A quick amp add got the total to well over 30. May not have tripped the breaker, but the load was probably in excess. Second. There is probably a small amount of potential between the Neutral and Ground….which, if to Code, was back in the main panel. The PI has been known to have a dim LED if the voltage or potential between Ground and Neutral is approaching the “OMG TURN ON” full intensity. So, ODDS ARE….there is the possibility of wiring or connection issues….which they often see and a different pedestal will not display the same errors as the “connections” are tight. Next…the overloading of a Dogbone and a high resistance connection will/may give a false or dim positive. Finally….the PI on Saturday night, based on temperatures and humidity may have cleared in the early hours….but heat and load might have created, again, the same scenario. If it is OK today….testing or overloading it would not be recommended….but if that is the need, then it could very well display the false positive error code…. PI will do some investigation and get back on the advisability of daisy chaining…. Miriam now has a much better understanding of how all this works and realizes that the PI she has is only good, basically, for testing and that her Surgeguard ATS is the main line of defense…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Yeah, good chance the washing machine put you over the top of what a 30A shore connection is capable of! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr4Film Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 It still boggles my mind why Monaco decided not to install the Intellitec EMS System in the higher end coaches. My 02 Windsor has it but my 06 Dynasty does not nor does it come on the Exec's or Sig's. You would think that it would have been more advantages to install it on the higher end coaches which can have a lot of amps being drawn versus the lower end ones which don't have the same amount of amp draw. It would sure help with people who don't have the skill set to monitor the amount of amps they are drawing with a 50 amp coach while on 30 amp power supply. Bill Groves, (RIP) personally installed the Intellitec EMS in his 06 Dynasty. If I ever get most of the more important projects completed with my Dynasty, I may think about adding it my Dynasty but for now I know how to manage the amp draw when on any 30 amp pedestal. Haven't been on one since owning the coach in 2022. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 12 minutes ago, 96 EVO said: Yeah, good chance the washing machine put you over the top of what a 30A shore connection is capable of! Remember….she does NOT have the COMBO Splendide, like I have or maybe you have. Separate units…and the dryer was not on. BUT….here is my theoretical Front AC - 17 A REFER - 5 A. Splendide WASHER ONLY 6 A…from the tech specs for the washing machine only one. Magnum at Bulk, 100% charge 10 A SO FAR 38 A….assuming no circulating fans, no hair dryers, no corn popping in Microwave….NO TV’s or Receivers (sound amps) on….etc….ETC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Tom, I'll be interested in hearing what Progressive Industries has to say about daisy chaining Surge protectors! Little surprised they don't already have a definitive answer on that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 16 minutes ago, 96 EVO said: Tom, I'll be interested in hearing what Progressive Industries has to say about daisy chaining Surge protectors! Little surprised they don't already have a definitive answer on that subject. They have discussed it….but not extensively. Miriam is going to quiz South Wire. The tech at PI is also going to ask for a definitive answer and will get back to me. Will post when something substantial is available. The is a topic of debate on some other sites…lots of opinions but based on little if any research or technical info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr4Film Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said: They have discussed it….but not extensively. Miriam is going to quiz South Wire. The tech at PI is also going to ask for a definitive answer and will get back to me. Will post when something substantial is available. The is a topic of debate on some other sites…lots of opinions but based on little if any research or technical info. I will post this question to Mike Sokol who is a RV Electrical guru who has his own newsletter, etc. He likes to "test" a lot of different scenario's. So let's see what he has to say also. Edited June 24 by Dr4Film 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 I know several years ago on IRV, owners of the original Hughes Autoformers (myself included), debated putting a cheap surge protector, that wouldn't shut down power for low voltage, upstream of their Hughes, to protect it, then a PI-EMS behind the autoformer. I rarely use my Autoformer, and never did this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr4Film Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 @96 EVO When we were full-time RVing staying at a variety of locations all over the country including Canada and Alaska, I was using the Todd Coffelt Power Master VC-50 first inline from the pedestal followed by the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C followed by my Lyght Transfer Switch. I never got shut down for low voltage anywhere. Plus I had an additional 3580 Joules of surge protection in front of the EMS-HW-50C unit which also has 3580 Joules of surge protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6Wheels Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 (edited) The adjacent LEDs may be bleeding some light to the lens where you see the dim red light. Unless it is bright like the others, it is not lit. Edited June 25 by 6Wheels error correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 3 minutes ago, 6Wheels said: The adjacent LEDs are bleeding some light to the lens where you see the dim red light. Unless it is bright like the others, it is not lit. Maybe, but Progressive Industries says that they can NEVER fully switch or on off an LED. It is a "voltage" detecting problem. They have a circuit that will turn on an LED when there is more than a 5 VAC potential or they "measure" the voltage from Neutral to Ground. If that voltage is zero. as it should be...then the LED is OFF. BUT, if it is getting close to 5 VAC, then the LED will display...but only DIMLY. This is not, per PI, an exotic circuit....they use a resistor to turn it ON or OFF...based on the 5 VAC reading. SO, when it is flaky or changing or is approaching the LIMIT....it might be dim...but if the condition worsens...it will be BRILLIANT...as the LED will be ON. So, the same thing is happening with the Open Neutral. Any time they see a "dimly lighted" LED, they know (and tell the customer) that there is an issue that the Unit has picked up...but it is NOT quite "bad" enough to fully illuminate the LED which is the ERROR. They said that the issue, they think, is an upstream problem...and it is intermittent and also load dependent... Bottom LINE...as long as the Surge Guard ATS was letting power through...it was NOT "ENOUGH" of an OPEN NEUTRAL to be a FULL OMG SIGNAL. BUT, there IS a problem....and when there is NO LOAD on the PI unit...or you are using it as a TESTER...a "feature", then all is well. BUT, when you have a LOAD on it, there is MORE current flowing in the circuit...so a "miswiring" issue, such as not being BONDED (Ground to Neutral), it would be normal for the "Measured Potential" to increase. BINGO...less than 5 VAC, but DEFINITELY NOT ZERO...as it should be loaded or unloaded. That's WHY the LED was dimmer...and why the PI Tech said that if the temp went up or whatever the temp was where the main upstream breaker was for the pedestals, that the LED may come on. SOMETHING was or is amiss upstream. NOW....he also said.. The main panel could be FINE...and IF there were some issues inside the molded plugs of the 30 - 50 Dogbone...that you COULD see a similar occurrence. BOTTOM LINE....the SurgeGuard SHOULD (since it is designed...supposedly, to be a REAL open neutral TEST...at LOAD) DROP OUT.... Just like the PI HW50C does... That's the technical side of our conversation....there IS, both SAID, an issue...but the accuracy and the sophistication of the Pedestal PI unit was way less than the SurgeGuard...but BE AWARE...Something on the OTHER side of the PI was NOT right.... Hope this helps clarify it. The POST was way too long and your post gave an opportunity to provide more, technical information. Thanks... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6Wheels Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 If that be the case most "primitive" circuits switching voltage would be closer to a 3/5V (AC/DC) threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 4 hours ago, 6Wheels said: If that be the case most "primitive" circuits switching voltage would be closer to a 3/5V (AC/DC) threshold. I'll let you discuss that in more detail with Progressive. My takeaway. There was a problem, not to a great extent...as evidenced by the downstream Surge Guard ATS "kicking out" or shutting down. That problem was not detected with the NO LOAD diagnostic test...and that is a feature. BUT, it is "Katie, bar the door" after a load was applied...or the environmental temperatures changed or such. He use the "value" of around 5 VAC as the switch or trigger point and the dim LED phenomen> past that...you can purse...but "BOTTOM LINE", nothing is wrong with the PI unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution MIRIAM Posted June 25 Author Solution Share Posted June 25 On 6/24/2024 at 12:44 PM, Tom Cherry said: OK….follow up and background as well as the most probable cause for Miriam’s issue. Spent time on phone with Miriam last night. Called Progressive this morning. Then followup with Miriam and also sorted out a few nuances. I may have skimmed, but the real issues were sort of in the background. She also clarified another key point. Was on 30 Amp power. AC on. Gas refrigerator on AC. Magnum charge rate was set high or not scaled back. Was running washer….has separate dryer…not on. The entire system or local grid blipped…as in on and off several times or at least a noticeable blip and interruption. AGS kicked on even though the 30 second timer had not timed down?? A puzzlement…but obviously some “unusual” power blips or surges or such. AC and Washer never shut down. Interior light (12 VDC) did flicker…but came back on….potential battery issue. She had not disabled Search Watts. Progressive showed an OPEN NEUTRAL. Miriam, as a precaution let the genny run and checked it. But she STILL had 30 A power….the error or fault codes were her concern. She unplugged and then plugged back in….still had the open neutral fault. But, the LED (red) was faint. This was an error code that could have been a result of a built up charge. THEN all the posting. This morning, as she was going to test the Progressive on an adjoining pedestal with a different 30-50 dogbone….all was well. FIXED ITSELF. I did NOT know that until after I talked to Progressive the first time. Their tech support guy was great….listened and commented and theorized…..so, here is what he and I concluded….not knowing that she DID have power but had error codes….which disappeared…. OK…bit of information for those who help and also have different MH. That Beaver is a “blend” of features and systems that I don’t ever remember reading about. 2003….but has an early version Intellitec MPX. Only TWO output modules…not 3 like the Camelots and has a large free standing Master Control module….NOT an IPX. Has NO Intellitec EMS system. It has the Dual IN - Dual OUT, with subpanel system like on the Dynasty’s. Also, the Surgeguard full featured ATS was standard….but no remote monitoring. Did not get to ask about an Aladdin?.?. The PO did a major rework of the HVAC system. Pulled out the FF fan in the rear galley area and put in a THIRD Dometic….and stole power from the Block Heater circuit. FWIW…Beaver never out a FF in the hallway between the galley and bedroom. The only FF left in toilet. SO…keep this in mind if advice is given…this is a “rare bird”….then modified and even more customized… OK….this is the gist of the call to Progressive…I made one….then got information from Miriam as she described the lights a little more concisely….so TWO tech support folks both agreed….. The simple 6 light PI surge suppressor is also a PEDESTAL Tester. Miriam was using that feature, but she was not turning back off the breaker before she plugged in the 30-50 adapter. Is changing that. Therefore, the PI is designed for “no load” testing of a Pedestal. The PI is strictly a “remote” monitoring device. It has surge MOV’s but NO contactor….like the HW50C….so, good bad or indifferent, it WILL allow substandard power to be passed on. BUT you will have idiotic lights…. We discussed the fact that when she plugged in the adapter, she got the error code. BTW….if there was a OPEN Neutral, the PI would display that regardless of on a 30 or 50. SOME folks think that having upstream MOV will protect their downstream high $$ ATS….NO evidence of that….but it is commonly done…. We concluded that there must be a “load” or high resistance issue in the 6 points or connections from the PI Neutral to the Neutral attachment to the receptacle inside the pedestal. He also stated that it was not necessary and redundant to have two suppressors in series. They had discussed internally but did not know that NEC and UL, at least several years ago, had said NOT to daisy chain 120 VAC units like a suppressor power strip used with a UPS suppressor. Agreed with the testing steps that Miriam planned to do this morning. BOTTOM LINE…..the gist of follow up comments from Progressive…. The dogbones were probably overloaded. A quick amp add got the total to well over 30. May not have tripped the breaker, but the load was probably in excess. Second. There is probably a small amount of potential between the Neutral and Ground….which, if to Code, was back in the main panel. The PI has been known to have a dim LED if the voltage or potential between Ground and Neutral is approaching the “OMG TURN ON” full intensity. So, ODDS ARE….there is the possibility of wiring or connection issues….which they often see and a different pedestal will not display the same errors as the “connections” are tight. Next…the overloading of a Dogbone and a high resistance connection will/may give a false or dim positive. Finally….the PI on Saturday night, based on temperatures and humidity may have cleared in the early hours….but heat and load might have created, again, the same scenario. If it is OK today….testing or overloading it would not be recommended….but if that is the need, then it could very well display the false positive error code…. PI will do some investigation and get back on the advisability of daisy chaining…. Miriam now has a much better understanding of how all this works and realizes that the PI she has is only good, basically, for testing and that her Surgeguard ATS is the main line of defense…. Hi all - it's been a brutal couple days at work, so sorry for the late responses. Fortunately, whatever it was, resolved itself. I will continue to monitor and have a new PI on on the way, but plan to use to only when checking the pedestal. Considering my Southwire ATS/SurgeGuard on board, just don't need it. I've used it for a year since we had the coach, but who knows why this blip caused the PI light to lightly illuminate and it has fixed itself (without me changing anything) It's been 36+ hours and the light is still gone. My silver lining, I took a crash course with deeper dive than just surface level understanding on multiple different pieces of my equipment. thanks to everyone who took time to read and offer help. Love this community and can't wait to be on the other side offering help instead of asking. ✌️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr4Film Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 5 minutes ago, MIRIAM said: Considering my Southwire ATS/SurgeGuard on board, just don't need it. I am confused about your statement above highlighted from your last post. Why do you think you don't need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 30 minutes ago, Dr4Film said: I am confused about your statement above highlighted from your last post. Why do you think you don't need it? Richard, There will be a “file” posted on this. It has been written and is being reviewed. Bottom line. Southwire or Surge Guard DOES recommend supplemental or upstream or redundant MOV surge protection. So, whether it is Progressive or Surge Guard, the Progressive can and is used as a “no load pedestal tester”. Much like the unit you make. Then, the Progressive is a first line of defense so if there is a surge or a condition that would or could damage the Surge Guard ATS, having it as a sacrificial device is the best. In addition from both a cost standpoint as well as functional standpoint, the more expensive ATS might not get damaged. But the real, non $$ issue, is that there is NOT an Aladdin compliant replacement made for the Surge Guard ATS…so the interface with the Aladdin is totally removed. This is the first time we have had a manufacturer state that daisy chaining two surge suppressors IS RECOMMENDED. Therefore we now have a technical recommendation and manufacturer’s recommendation. That will be explained in more detail, with links and such….as soon as it is reviewed. Hope this helps. Once that is in the files, there will be a link to close this out. I just covered this with Miriam and she now understands….so….please wait until the file is up. Thanks… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr4Film Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 @Tom Cherry Well that's all well and good, BUT.... I am still confused why the think they don't need the Southwire ATS/Surge Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 53 minutes ago, Dr4Film said: @Tom Cherry Well that's all well and good, BUT.... I am still confused why the think they don't need the Southwire ATS/Surge Guard. The way I read it, they are saying they don't need anything other than the Southwire ATS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr4Film Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 10 minutes ago, 96 EVO said: The way I read it, they are saying they don't need anything other than the Southwire ATS. 👍😵💫 OMG! Thank you! I had to read it a couple more times and you are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 EVO Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 19 minutes ago, Dr4Film said: 👍😵💫 OMG! Thank you! I had to read it a couple more times and you are correct. Ha, yeah, I can see it being read the way you did as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 13 hours ago, Tom Cherry said: Richard, There will be a “file” posted on this. It has been written and is being reviewed. Bottom line. Southwire or Surge Guard DOES recommend supplemental or upstream or redundant MOV surge protection. So, whether it is Progressive or Surge Guard, the Progressive can and is used as a “no load pedestal tester”. Much like the unit you make. Then, the Progressive is a first line of defense so if there is a surge or a condition that would or could damage the Surge Guard ATS, having it as a sacrificial device is the best. In addition from both a cost standpoint as well as functional standpoint, the more expensive ATS might not get damaged. But the real, non $$ issue, is that there is NOT an Aladdin compliant replacement made for the Surge Guard ATS…so the interface with the Aladdin is totally removed. This is the first time we have had a manufacturer state that daisy chaining two surge suppressors IS RECOMMENDED. Therefore we now have a technical recommendation and manufacturer’s recommendation. That will be explained in more detail, with links and such….as soon as it is reviewed. Hope this helps. Once that is in the files, there will be a link to close this out. I just covered this with Miriam and she now understands….so….please wait until the file is up. Thanks… ONE MORE TIME> Southwire/Surge Guard Tech support RECOMMENDS a supplemental MOV Surge Suppressor UPSTREAM. This is a MONITOR ONLY with MOV idiot lights. Putting TWO MOV Surge Suppressors in series does NOT create any funky situations where one or both of the MOV units gets "CONFUSED" if there is a surge Each MOV Surge Suppressor is still ONLY RATED for the Joules listed. There is NOT an additive condition where the system will have TWICE the JOULES. The cheaper, upstream MOV Surge Suppressor is the FIRST LINE of defense. If there is a Surge, then it takes the hit. Cheaper to replace than the more expensive Surge Guard Surge Suppressor ATS. AND, since you can't BUY a direct replacement, you protect your OEM or older Surge Guard (the PN never changed....the newer ones do NOT have the interface for the Aladdin. SO, buy an insurance policy....use an upstream one. Southwire/Surge Guard recommends a HARD WIRED one. It is the SAME as the Pedestal Plug in.... They say to put it right before the ATS. That way, you are also protected from anything funky, like using a neutral, in the Shore to ATS line. THAT's their position. BUT, if you want to use a Plug In and then "TEST" the Pedestal, that will work ALSO. Then the Surge Protected ATS will protect you. In THEORY, a SPIKE should not occur in the Shore to ATS...but who knows. Miriam understand this. She will continue to use her Progressive Industries to test the Pedestal. She will then TURN OFF the breaker, plug in the MH, TURN ON the breaker....wait and monitor the lights....and then...rock on. This is just as good as putting in a hard wired one and she has the Progressive and she also can use it as a PEDESTAL TESTER. That was APPROVED by the Southwire/Surge Guard Tech support...who actually said he was Mr. Surge.. I am NOT joking... he has been doing this for years and understands....and also "teaches" anyone that calls in...LOL. Her issue was an upstream "fault" that was NOT detected, due to the simplistic or low end "TRIGGER" signals...during the TESTING phase. BUT, when there was a LOAD, the condition obviously worsened and the Voltage Difference (which is what TRIGGERS on the light(s) got WORSE. The dim or faint glow on the right side was the result...and Progressive has seen this or had questions about it before. It is common and unless you had a more sophisticated model (like the HW50C or equivalent....you just rock on. Southwire/Surge Guard DID say... If the Green Lights or the Startup FAILS....and the MOV's are DEAD or TOAST. THEY ARE NOT REPAIRABLE. NOW, a footnote.., he explained in GREAT DETAIL exactly how that happens and started out by telling me how Volta made a battery...and you guys think I GET DEEP...! I met my match. Bottom line... The Progressives with replaceable boards are FIELD SERVICABLE. NONE of the Surge Guards were or will be "FIXABLE". OK....HOPE that clear the air...and we can let this one rock on or "DIE". Miriam now understands and is happy....and her power is working and she has protection for the ATS. She is going to locate and install the remote panel for her ATS... Now lets have the benediction and move on... LOL... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRIAM Posted June 26 Author Share Posted June 26 27 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said: ONE MORE TIME> Southwire/Surge Guard Tech support RECOMMENDS a supplemental MOV Surge Suppressor UPSTREAM. This is a MONITOR ONLY with MOV idiot lights. Putting TWO MOV Surge Suppressors in series does NOT create any funky situations where one or both of the MOV units gets "CONFUSED" if there is a surge Each MOV Surge Suppressor is still ONLY RATED for the Joules listed. There is NOT an additive condition where the system will have TWICE the JOULES. The cheaper, upstream MOV Surge Suppressor is the FIRST LINE of defense. If there is a Surge, then it takes the hit. Cheaper to replace than the more expensive Surge Guard Surge Suppressor ATS. AND, since you can't BUY a direct replacement, you protect your OEM or older Surge Guard (the PN never changed....the newer ones do NOT have the interface for the Aladdin. SO, buy an insurance policy....use an upstream one. Southwire/Surge Guard recommends a HARD WIRED one. It is the SAME as the Pedestal Plug in.... They say to put it right before the ATS. That way, you are also protected from anything funky, like using a neutral, in the Shore to ATS line. THAT's their position. BUT, if you want to use a Plug In and then "TEST" the Pedestal, that will work ALSO. Then the Surge Protected ATS will protect you. In THEORY, a SPIKE should not occur in the Shore to ATS...but who knows. Miriam understand this. She will continue to use her Progressive Industries to test the Pedestal. She will then TURN OFF the breaker, plug in the MH, TURN ON the breaker....wait and monitor the lights....and then...rock on. This is just as good as putting in a hard wired one and she has the Progressive and she also can use it as a PEDESTAL TESTER. That was APPROVED by the Southwire/Surge Guard Tech support...who actually said he was Mr. Surge.. I am NOT joking... he has been doing this for years and understands....and also "teaches" anyone that calls in...LOL. Her issue was an upstream "fault" that was NOT detected, due to the simplistic or low end "TRIGGER" signals...during the TESTING phase. BUT, when there was a LOAD, the condition obviously worsened and the Voltage Difference (which is what TRIGGERS on the light(s) got WORSE. The dim or faint glow on the right side was the result...and Progressive has seen this or had questions about it before. It is common and unless you had a more sophisticated model (like the HW50C or equivalent....you just rock on. Southwire/Surge Guard DID say... If the Green Lights or the Startup FAILS....and the MOV's are DEAD or TOAST. THEY ARE NOT REPAIRABLE. NOW, a footnote.., he explained in GREAT DETAIL exactly how that happens and started out by telling me how Volta made a battery...and you guys think I GET DEEP...! I met my match. Bottom line... The Progressives with replaceable boards are FIELD SERVICABLE. NONE of the Surge Guards were or will be "FIXABLE". OK....HOPE that clear the air...and we can let this one rock on or "DIE". Miriam now understands and is happy....and her power is working and she has protection for the ATS. She is going to locate and install the remote panel for her ATS... Now lets have the benediction and move on... LOL... Thanks everyone - it was originally advised to not double up and use my PI from pedestal before my ATS/Surgeguard onboard - however - later retracted and suggested to keep the PI upstream from my ATS/SurgeGuard (by Southwire) exactly what I have been doing, so that's what I'm gonna keep on doing. I may never know (definitively) what caused the lightly illuminated red light (without a power issue or any loss of power), but learned a TON about the system in the process, so I'm good to go...better equipped for (please no) if this ever happens again. BTW - already ordered my Southwire (SureGuard) remote last night, so will install when it gets here. PS - ironically, I just saw a post from another camper on FB last night who had the exact same issue....with the same PI (except hers was 30a) - soooo ? moving on until the next newbie learning lesson that presents itself. love the help and support from all as I learn!! ✌️✌️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimc99999 Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 (edited) The Progressive EMS-PT50X will protect against high and low voltages, and has a readout to show voltage, hertz, and current amperage load on both power circuits (50A is two separate power circuits). I've never had mine cut power due to surge or over voltage, but I've had it cut power multiple times at multiple campgrounds for low voltage (I think under 106V). It also shows you error codes for the various errors with a printout on the side of the device, so no need to guess. It functions fine when used with a 30A adapter as well. If you ever plug in somewhere you're not 100% sure of the power quality, you should be using the Progressive EMS or similar unless you like chasing electrical problems and fried circuits due to low voltage. I've been using the external model for years, but if I ever have to replace the transfer switch or inverter I'd be very tempted to install a hardwired unit. Edited June 26 by jimc99999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cherry Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 2 hours ago, jimc99999 said: The Progressive EMS-PT50X will protect against high and low voltages, and has a readout to show voltage, hertz, and current amperage load on both power circuits (50A is two separate power circuits). I've never had mine cut power due to surge or over voltage, but I've had it cut power multiple times at multiple campgrounds for low voltage (I think under 106V). It also shows you error codes for the various errors with a printout on the side of the device, so no need to guess. It functions fine when used with a 30A adapter as well. If you ever plug in somewhere you're not 100% sure of the power quality, you should be using the Progressive EMS or similar unless you like chasing electrical problems and fried circuits due to low voltage. I've been using the external model for years, but if I ever have to replace the transfer switch or inverter I'd be very tempted to install a hardwired unit. Not quite. Since your rig, unless you updated the ATS is totally different from Miriams and comments that are generic often confuse members. I agree with your approach and mine has been upgraded…. Miriam ALREADY has the equivalent of what you are discussing….and mine is configured exactly like you commented. Miriam’s Surge Guard ATS has all the same features as my PI EMS HW50C. Now, as Monaco installed it, there was no “dedicated” remote readout on it as it interfaced with the Aladdin. Once she installs the remote, then her standalone or combi Surge and ATS will be virtually the same and equivalent to my HW50C and my ESCO LPT50BRD ATS. BUT. ALL the boards or components inside BOTH are FIELD SERVICABLE. TOTAL of a combined 3 PCB and two contactors….maybe, but can’t recall if the ESCO has one or two. Her SURGE GUARD is considered as NON REPAIRABLE, but we have had folks replace MOV’s, contactors, and cut the old one and retrofit the new model for the Aladdin. You may not have the 15 year history that many of us have….nor been involved in the never ending debates of dual or daisy chained MOV’s. Much research was done. No one here or on any reputable site ever had a “technical recommendation” or any testing data. SOUTHWIRE has said. Daisy chaining is OK, matter of fact, recommended. What Miriam was doing was correct, except for a minor “do this” error and she understands that. She now has a pedestal tester as well as the first line of defense and she has upstream protection for her upscale ATS, WHICH DOES INTERRUPT POWER for at least 3 dangerous conditions….almost a clone of the parameters of the EMS HW 50 C. The only reason for this comment was to clarify what Miriam has as many members are not aware as well as to bring the discussion back to this specific issue. I highly recommend and have since 2010, the EMS HW50C and a high quality normal ATS. Thanks for the post and also understanding why, since this particular scenario was resolved, that some members may be puzzled and think you were advocating a solution that was different,,,, Merely recommending what a majority of members are doing… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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