Battery boost switch inoperative

[daveyjo]

In an effort to recharge my starting batteries quickly, I engaged the switch the connects that connects the chassis battery with the coach battery (the one that helps you start the coach when the starting battery needs help).  I guess that's called the battery boost switch.  Anyway, something got lodged under it and kept it engaged and now it won't work.  It used to light up when engaged, but not any more, and it doesn't connect the 2 systems anymore.  I can't find a schematic that shows it.  I can't find a fuse for it (I probably don't recognize what it is called) and need help troubleshooting it.  Help.

Dave

2005 HR Scepter.

[jacwjames]

In my front drivers side electrical bay I have a 7.5 amp fuse for Aux Start, which I believe is for that switch. 

[Tom Cherry]

36 minutes ago, daveyjo said:

In an effort to recharge my starting batteries quickly, I engaged the switch the connects that connects the chassis battery with the coach battery (the one that helps you start the coach when the starting battery needs help).  I guess that's called the battery boost switch.  Anyway, something got lodged under it and kept it engaged and now it won't work.  It used to light up when engaged, but not any more, and it doesn't connect the 2 systems anymore.  I can't find a schematic that shows it.  I can't find a fuse for it (I probably don't recognize what it is called) and need help troubleshooting it.  Help.

Dave

2005 HR Scepter.

That BOOST SWITCH (check the explanation in your manual) was designed, as a safety to prevent damage to the “Big BOY”. It was never designed for continuous duty.  In fact, holding it on for more than the prescribed amount of time does this.  When the Big Boy is operated by the BIRD Module, there is a pulsed or lower voltage signal.  In your MH, similar to mine, the voltage is close 3.5 VDC.  The boost switch, sends out a FULL 12 VDC.  The coil on the Big Boy is NOT rated nor designed for full or continous 12 VDC.  Typically the coil heats up and shorts or burns up,

Many of the OTHER sites recommends “shoving a golf tee under it”.  There ARE some boost solenoids that operate with a full 12 VDC….not the Intellitec 200A (yes, the 100 Amp does…but odds are, you have the 200 A.

If the fuse is blown…odds are….the current draw….as in the current got way too high.  

Locate fhe fuse.  See your manual. DID YOU GET OUT WHAT JAMMED IT ON?

If the fuse blows again….the Big Boy is probably TOAST. Easy replacement.  Two nuts and two terminals.  Amazon has them.

there is a current thread    White Rodgers (XXXXXX pn).  Find it.

I just posted how to trouble shoot the solenoid…but my suspicion….it is fried.  The current spiked and that popped the boost fuse.  New solenoid, but you can test.  Put in a new fuse and follow the instructions.

Good luck….let us know…we all learn

 

[daveyjo]

I found the fuse.  The fuse is OK (5 amp Aux start).  The solenoid coil measures about 9 ohms, so it appears OK.  Tom, the switch is no longer jammed on.  So I am still stumped.  Any more ideas?  Maybe the relevant fuse has some other name?

[jacwjames]

You might take the switch out and test it. 

I believe you can also test the solenoid by applying 12 volt to the small terminal.  One of the small terminals is a ground the other comes from the switch.  You should be able to trace one of the wires to a ground location. 

[Tom Cherry]

20 hours ago, daveyjo said:

I found the fuse.  The fuse is OK (5 amp Aux start).  The solenoid coil measures about 9 ohms, so it appears OK.  Tom, the switch is no longer jammed on.  So I am still stumped.  Any more ideas?  Maybe the relevant fuse has some other name?

OK….from the top.  First….pop out switch…the whole base comes out….do NOT pull on the top or actuator cover.  Use a small blade knife to lift up the base and wiggle…it comes out.  4 wires.  Or maybe 3…

Power IN.  ONE of them is gonna be HOT….if not….wiring issue…yes the fuse is the correct one.

Find the ground…use VOM in continuity….that is there ONLY to make the pilot light come on.  
POWER OUT.  If only 3 wires….then the third is output.  ASSUMING you have power….mark and take off the power IN.  The third wire will be the power to the rear.  When you manually depress the switch (out works also), then there should be a circuit between the POWER in and POWER OUT.  If 4 wires….then there would be a “feedback” or Pilot light wire.  May be a jumper with two wires….one  is the POWER OUT  and the short Jumper goes to another terminal on the switch….

OK…do NOT, under any circumstances, if you have the Intellitec BIG BOY….EVER use a 12 VDC WIRED JUMPER.  Ok to use a probe…but never hook up power and ground with jumpers. 30 seconds MAX is the FULL POWER or continuous circuit…that is for the 200A.  KNOW which one you have,  if you have a Trombetta or a White Rodgers, they are continous….a 200A Intellitec Big Boy ain’t.

Did you scroll and find the White Rodger post? That has specific and detailed instructions for testing a BOOST Solenoid…. Use SEARCH.  White Rodgers as key word or even WHITE.  Click on EVERYWHERE.  Select TOPICS.  Click on SEARCH.  Open that topic,,l posted near the end the correct procedure.

FEEDBACK snd let us know what is going on…

[daveyjo]

OK. Here is the latest:  Solenoid (Trombetta) is good.  One can hear it actuate when the boost switch is activated.  But the switch light does not illuminate any more, so my conclusion is that either the switch light is burnt out, or there is a fuse in the switch light circuit that is burnt out.  It would seem weird to have two 12 VDC feeds to the switch (one for the light and one for the solenoid), and so if the switch actuates the solenoid it must provide power to the lamp too.  I'll pull the switch tomorrow and check further.   

BUT, here is more weird info:  The solenoid leads (disconnected from the solenoid)  measure 8 volts on one lead (to ground), and 6 volts on the other lead.  There is a small current going through the solenoid with both leads connected to the solenoid.  I vaguely remember some time ago deciding to disconnect the solenoid when I was boondocking to avoid any extra battery discharge. (I put a switch in the line.  It was on when my problems occurred.)

The coach is plugged in.

[Tom Cherry]

6 minutes ago, daveyjo said:

OK. Here is the latest:  Solenoid (Trombetta) is good.  One can hear it actuate when the boost switch is activated.  But the switch light does not illuminate any more, so my conclusion is that either the switch light is burnt out, or there is a fuse in the switch light circuit that is burnt out.  It would seem weird to have two 12 VDC feeds to the switch (one for the light and one for the solenoid), and so if the switch actuates the solenoid it must provide power to the lamp too.  I'll pull the switch tomorrow and check further.   

BUT, here is more weird info:  The solenoid leads (disconnected from the solenoid)  measure 8 volts on one lead (to ground), and 6 volts on the other lead.  There is a small current going through the solenoid with both leads connected to the solenoid.  I vaguely remember some time ago deciding to disconnect the solenoid when I was boondocking to avoid any extra battery discharge. (I put a switch in the line.  It was on when my problems occurred.)

The coach is plugged in.

Need to do some REREADING.  That is exactly what should be HAPPENING...

OK...Switch.  There were TWO kinds of Carling Switches.  One had a replaceable LAMP...the others did NOT.  This is a MOMENTARY Contact switch.  The light is only there, as that is HOW the switches are MADE.  If this was a ON OFF type, then, YES...a light would be GOOD.  BUT folks have opted to install a pilot light in a panel when the LIGHT on the switch went bad. YES, the Actuator (or the TOP) is removable. BUT, one needs a special (Cheap) TOOL...and one needs to have some finesse as if you "break the top", then finding the REPLACEMENT is difficult.  Monaco had, as all MH manufacturers and marine folks did, CUSTOM PAD PRINTED actuators.  I have the same (may be a different style or shape) switch for my Exhaust brake.  That is a HIGH USE switch...so the plastic (RED...ENG BRK) actuator broke.  You could still use it...but the top or cover was NOT locked or secured...  

I had to order a BLANK RED one with the write configuration.  I made up a Brother Label and it works.  SO, I would NOT think about even taking it apart to see if the Bulb is replaceable.  NOW, at NIGHT, it might NOT COME ON....there are TWO Bulbs, I think...one is wired to the headlights.  I FORGOT about that...so there may have been another wire.

Next UP...IT WORKS...you know your options and the pitfalls.

As to the BIG BOY.  Remember...you are NOT supposed to have a FULL 12 VDC to it for more than 30 SECONDS....  The BIRD Module, which you have, is what sends out a SIGNAL to the BIRD.  ONE of the TERMINALS on the BIG BOY is GROUND.  The OTHER is POSITIVE.  NOW the Dynasty system PULSES the GROUND.  SO...the Dynasty folks might chime in.  The cheaper BIRD Diesel 2 PUSLSES the POSITIVE.  If you measured the VOLTAGE across the TWO leads, assuming you do NOT have the FANCY Intellitec Custom Board....the voltage will read 3 - 4 VOLTS.  If it is at LEAST 3 VDC (across the TERMINALS....HOOKED UP) it is FINE.  What is happening.  The BIRD Diesel2 is an electronic PULSER.  It turns on and off the VOLTAGE maybe 20 TIMES per second.  The ON time is around 33 - 40%.  SO, your VOM, across the TERMINAL, reads the AVERAGE VOLTAGE.  Normally the BIRD Diesel2 will read 3 to say 5 or 6 VDC (forgot the exact top number....and the Dynasty Special board will read 6 - 10 or so....but THE SPEC is BIRD DIESEL2 is 4VDC and the Dynasty Intelitec Board (and maybe Monaco use the special board....one never know) will be 8 VDC.  Averages...you need an oscilliscope to read exact pulse width and voltage.

FINALLY... The BIRD Diesel2 or control voltage seems to be working.  

That is in the White Rodgers Topic.  DO IT.  If the contacts are crappy, you can easily take apart the Big Boy and clean them.

Report back on the voltages when it is working...and TEST when it is working...then will provide a link, if needed, for cleaning.

I SUSPECT, from your original post...the contacts are pitted...and you need to do the 30 minute cleaning.

 

[daveyjo]

OK, I pulled out the switch.

First off, as you can see, there was what appears to be an unnecessary plastic extension to the switch labeled BOOST START as you can see in this photo.  Guess that doesn't matter, just seemed weird.  Two of the purple leads (labeled BATT BOOST on the wires themselves) go to the spst switch which, when connected by the switch, actuate the solenoid.  The other 2 pins on the switch go to a dual orange lead and a dual white lead (measures ground).  I measure no voltage on them, switch actuated or not.  Applying an independent 12V to the other two pins of the switch illuminates the light bulb within the switch.  see pic 1

So it appears as the battery boost system works but no switch light comes on.

My recollection (could be faulty) was that the light in the switch came on when connecting the batteries using the switch.  But it was a while ago when I did it and have only done it a couple of times, so maybe it never came on and I could tell it jumpered them because the coach would start.  Anyone else – does the light come on when you activate the battery boost switch?

Now a related question.  In the front run box is a box labeled ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY attached just below the fuses.  see pic 2

It apparently failed before I owned the coach, as the 3 leads connected to the ISOLATER RELAY DELAY are cut and the device has apparently been replaced by the device labeled Bi-Directional Isolator Delay Diesel-2.  See pic 3

Could this be related to when the coach batteries are connected to the chassis batteries so as to charge both sets of batteries?  Maybe it is related to my battery boost light not working?

Thanks for the help.

Dave

..

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, daveyjo said:

OK, I pulled out the switch.

First off, as you can see, there was what appears to be an unnecessary plastic extension to the switch labeled BOOST START as you can see in this photo.  Guess that doesn't matter, just seemed weird.  Two of the purple leads (labeled BATT BOOST on the wires themselves) go to the spst switch which, when connected by the switch, actuate the solenoid.  The other 2 pins on the switch go to a dual orange lead and a dual white lead (measures ground).  I measure no voltage on them, switch actuated or not.  Applying an independent 12V to the other two pins of the switch illuminates the light bulb within the switch.  see pic 1

So it appears as the battery boost system works but no switch light comes on.

My recollection (could be faulty) was that the light in the switch came on when connecting the batteries using the switch.  But it was a while ago when I did it and have only done it a couple of times, so maybe it never came on and I could tell it jumpered them because the coach would start.  Anyone else – does the light come on when you activate the battery boost switch?

Now a related question.  In the front run box is a box labeled ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY attached just below the fuses.  see pic 2

 

It apparently failed before I owned the coach, as the 3 leads connected to the ISOLATER RELAY DELAY are cut and the device has apparently been replaced by the device labeled Bi-Directional Isolator Delay Diesel-2.  See pic 3

Could this be related to when the coach batteries are connected to the chassis batteries so as to charge both sets of batteries?  Maybe it is related to my battery boost light not working?

Thanks for the help.

Dave

That DEVICE is a BIRD or Bi-Directional Charging Module. Someone has UPGRADED the MH from the ISOLATION device (the 3 wire device....to the FULL & BiDirectional device...which allows the HOUSE to be Charged from Chassis while driving.  The Chassis will also be charged from the HOUSE while plugged in.  This assumes 50 Amp or 30 Amp.  If you don't have that SHORE available...then the GENNY will provide that.

READ ALL ABOUT IT... See the PDF....ALSO read, carefully, this next TOPIC, which I will attach at the end..  It details exactly HOW to test the BIRD Module. 

The testing must be done in phases and you must do some prep work....Summarizing...

Disconnect the BATTERY wires (the output) from you solar. OR cover the Solar Panel with a tarp or blanket.

You will need a HELPER.

You start by measuring the terminals on the BIRD.  WITH Batteries Disconnected (turn off Switches) and then you work your way through the testing.

You will also need to go to the rear to test the Big Boy Solenoid.  The SOLENOID terminal is the WIRE that goes to the BIG Boy. NOW...since this was an ADD ON....we DO NOT TRUST ANYONE.  LOL...we have been FOOLED when folks say... "It's wOred (Southern pronouned as in TIRES are TARS -Like Road Tar) just like it woulda been at the factory"....

SO, the FIRST TEST.   NOT in the instruction or write up.  DISCONNECT the Solenoid wire.  OK...the SAFE WAY.  Get a 5 Amp fuse.  Insert the Terminal in the WIRE...(solenoid). Then have someone stand in the back with their hand on the BOOST Solenoid.  I can't really recall if you have the Intellitec or a Trombetta or White Rodgers.  SO, they can safely put their hand on it.  NOW, have a wire from any 12 VDC source.  Touch or ATTACH the 12 VDC wire to the OTHER terminal on the FUSE.  BINGO....CLUNK or the Boost Solenoid should engage.  IF that doesn't happen... Then the wiring is not correct...and that is a whole other issue.

Once you have the CIRCUIT tested so that the SOLENOID wire is connected to the Boost Solenoid....then proceed to test as outlined...

BTW.  When you start to measure the VOLTAGE on the TWO small (Control wires to the COIL) terminals on the Boost Solenoid.  That will be MUCH LOWER.  It is a Pulsed or REGULATED output.  It will range between 3 and maybe 5 or 6 VDC.  That is outlines in the PDF...but it usually CONFUSES FOLKS...  They POST...that BIRD is broken....it only puts out low VOLTAGE.  NOPE...that is the design.  The lower, regulated voltage (mine is about 3.4 VDC keeps the COIL cooler.

Here's the TOPIC.  LONG, but it is what is necessary.  It is GOOD that the BIRD is there.  Now testing it...and THEN testing the BOOST is next...

BTW...it JUST HIT ME.  I wrote up how to TEST the BOOST solenoid.  I will attach that thread.  Did that this morning.  YOUR OLD SYSTEM was exactly this way.  BUT, the BIRD modernized it.  SO, you can TEST the Boost like or in the steps of the TROMBETTA...that is the WHITE RODGERs post...so NOW there are TWO.

Ain't MH'ing FUN and you learn all sort of skills....but your POCKET BOOK stays FULL....TRUST ME ON THAT.... 

 

 

 

GOOD Diesel 2 BIRD system.pdf

[jacwjames]

See if the light comes on when the light switch is pulled out and dimmer turned on full.  Most of my switches light up when it do that, I think it's for night driving.

[Tom Cherry]

23 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

See if the light comes on when the light switch is pulled out and dimmer turned on full.  Most of my switches light up when it do that, I think it's for night driving.

YES, Almost ALL the Carling switches, or at least the majority, have a DASH LIGHT wire or Bulb.  That, as Jim says, is controlled by the Dash Lights Dimmer Switch.

NOW, if there is a PILOT light....that will be a SECOND Bulb.

Personally...I think the issue is resolved.  PULL ALL THE WIRES LOOSE on the Switch. You have BYPASSED the Salesman Solenoid....The CONTROL wire or the POSITIVE is disconnected.  NOW...there is ONE fuse in that Solenoid.  PULL that SUCKER.  It is NOT being controlled by anything.  I don't see how the switch up front is doing anything.... except being a worrisome nuance...

Now concentrate on WHAT started this thread...the misuse of the BOOST for Charging instead of troubleshooting the BIRD and BOOST....LOTS TO DO THERE...

[VinceB]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Ain't MH'ing FUN and you learn all sort of skills....but your POCKET BOOK stays FULL....TRUST ME ON THAT.... 

 

The DW says I'm like Scotty on Star Trek - always fixing something to keep us on mission. I always reply: "I'm giving you all I can Cap'n and I can't give ya no more"... LOL.