1996 Monaco Windsor - Engine won’t turn over

[MyronTruex]

9 hours ago, PauleJoubran said:

Thanks Benjamin. I didn’t mention replacing the fuse twice. I’m assuming a direct short to ground or a faulty component because I’ve tried replacing the fuse twice and the moment it’s connected, it sparks and blows the fuse.

I’m thinking the Hot solenoid is activated when the shore power is plugged in. I haven’t tried disconnecting shore power when I was testing everything but when the ignition is set in the “on” position or “start” position, shouldn’t the shore power automatically disconnect?

No. The shore power is not connected to the ignition switch in any way. The generator could be set as priority in the automatic transfer switch, but then the converter/charger does not care which source of 110 volts it receives.

If the solenoid disengages when shoreline is removed, it is highly likely it is part of a BIRD or IRD component as mentioned previously. My solenoid runs so hot it will scorch your fingers. 

In the process of changing out my solenoid that combines my batteries, I produced a video of the process of diagnosis. The video mentions how hot it gets and my new solenoid now has a neat little fan attached that cools it when engaged. So far the solenoid is close to ambient temps at all times and the bonus of the fan is that when the solenoid is engaged, the fan is running, so I have a visual indication. 

[Rikadoo]

Hello paule, so working with a volt meter can be a challange in a few ways however is does give a clear view of voltage provided we know what the expected voltages should be. Looking at your post from about 15 hrs ago im seeing some good results an concerned about others. 

First the good: the solinoid in the dash area looks good. ( its saying in key off there is voltage difference on large lugs, then with key on that difference drops to 0 cause the voltage drop between the two lugs are linked together)

Second solinoid in back of the bus: not so much, givin that scenario you would have an “active” solinoid in the key off position causing a 1/4 amp draw (thats what solinoid engauging circuit draw equates to) now looking at other tests you say the voltage is at 13.2 , that suggests you have the coach plugged in (inverter) is charging. And as someone else stated that “may” be caused by the bird being engauged to charge the the chassis batteries. I suggest re run that test with the coach unplugged to see if results change.

NOW, the one that concerns me is the shinney or the Hot solinoid!!! You stated little lug 0 big lug 0 with key off… at the time you tested that was that solinoid HOT? What i need to know what were the voltages of each big lug to ground during the key off, on, then start. Reason: is if that solinoid is hot with the off position and the small lug voltage is 0 then that means the big lugs are passing some big amps when there not supposed to be, or it only gets hot with the key ON  and the big lugs stay at 0 makes me think you have no voltage on either of the big lugs😳

Lastly the little wires (with the fuse) rather than using the voltmeter, use the ohms setting, then test the side that DOES NOT GO TO THE FUSE BOX, instead connect one of your of your leads to the other wire, then your other test lead to a “good” ground. Im suspecting your gonna read like 5 ohms or less which means that wire is shorted to ground. Untill you know that resistance do not put a bigger fuse in that place as it can cause results you will not enjoy😖

[dl_racing427]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:23 AM, Rikadoo said:

Paule, so fyi that shinney solinoid with one small wire, the single wire solinoids mean that they ground thru the body of the solinoid, where as a double small wire solinoid uses a external ground. I always choose the latter even though it means i have to add a wire and ground it. That way you have options to build circuits as you want them, and with the way the part availabilty situation is today your not “stuck” if you just cant get what “YOU” want.

That's excellent advice.  One spare solenoid can replace both types.
It also gives you the option to swap a non-critical one to a critical function to prevent being stranded.

[jimc99999]

On 7/27/2024 at 11:23 AM, Rikadoo said:

Paule, so fyi that shinney solinoid with one small wire, the single wire solinoids mean that they ground thru the body of the solinoid, where as a double small wire solinoid uses a external ground. I always choose the latter even though it means i have to add a wire and ground it. That way you have options to build circuits as you want them, and with the way the part availabilty situation is today your not “stuck” if you just cant get what “YOU” want.

Even if all you had was the body ground solenoid, can't you just run a ground wire from the mounting bolt to a ground if necessary? Seems like the only time that would really matter is with a switched ground instead of switched positive. Switched ground is used for automotive sometimes (or at least used to be) but I'm not sure how often switched ground is used on our motorhomes.

Edited July 29 by jimc99999

[Rikadoo]

So jim what im refering to is the type of ground to “operate” a solinoid or as you stated control it. Yes on many systems it is used for control as that way your smart systems can tell if the soinoid is on or off or even if its “ open “ my reasoning of using a dual wire design is 2 fold, the 1st is to say if you CANT find a single wire design these dual wire styles can be used in a single wire application that all you need is to ground the other little stud, 

an 2nd for me its the best way to insure you have a good ground to ensure connectivity, as i have found the case with “case grounding” is hoping you dont have a compromised ground at the mounting screws.

The solinoids do the same thing, its just a matter of knowing you have a successful ground, especially if your mounting surface might not be metel😎

[Tom Cherry]

39 minutes ago, Rikadoo said:

So jim what im refering to is the type of ground to “operate” a solinoid or as you stated control it. Yes on many systems it is used for control as that way your smart systems can tell if the soinoid is on or off or even if its “ open “ my reasoning of using a dual wire design is 2 fold, the 1st is to say if you CANT find a single wire design these dual wire styles can be used in a single wire application that all you need is to ground the other little stud, 

an 2nd for me its the best way to insure you have a good ground to ensure connectivity, as i have found the case with “case grounding” is hoping you dont have a compromised ground at the mounting screws.

The solinoids do the same thing, its just a matter of knowing you have a successful ground, especially if your mounting surface might not be metel😎

Coming late, although I have commented on this before.

I have NO IDEA how Monaco switched the Brake Light on the earlier Dynasties.  BUT, it was a FIASCO...as in a NEGATIVE SWITCHING or Switching a GROUND. That confuses many, if not the majority of members. It has baffled folks for years trying to hook up Brake Controllers.

Fast Forward to 2005, Monaco decided to "add" a Brake Control Harness.  They TRIED, and failed, to get it right. The print that they provided to dealers for hookup up a Brake Controller was flawed. That was eventually corrected, actually by a Manufacturer of a TOAD Braking control system. THEY picked it up.

BUT, many had figured it out. They tapped into the Negative Switched Brake Relay....or the SIGNAL TO Pin or 85 or 86. Most of us never have been exposed to switching a ground to activate a relay. They relay's pin 86 is TYPICALLY going to a Ground.

There are NO smart of CHIP driven, generally speaking, circuits on the earlier ones. SOME of the Intellitec Boards on the 2005 and up Dynasty MAY have done that.

There is ONLY one OTHER circuit that I have ever found that switched or energized a relay with a GROUND signal. That is on the the Models with individual Front Shades and Visors.  MEMORY....was that in order to have ONE switch that the driver could control for the Passenger....and the fact that the Passenger had a switch, there was a clever (OK....ingenius to the point of bafflement... LOL) way... Except to Energize a relay from another relay and that was by switching the GROUND.

YES, there might be, as in the Braking system, a relay that DOES, using Pins 30 and 87 as well as 87a, SWITCH A NEGATIVE SIGNAL.

I admit to being confused, all the time,  with Monaco's ineptness or illogical circuits...but after a while, they sorta made sense....and then if you keep drawing lines or watching Mr. Electron go through the circuit, at least you UNDERSTAND IT...and also wonder.  Was THAT REALLY Necessary....as the Techs and most folks with electronics or electrical troubleshooting experience USUALLY check a Relay for a Positive INCOMING signal on Pin 85.

Not trying to confuse....but needed to state this....and HOPE it doesn't do more HARM than good.

EDIT...since this started OUT as a SOLENOID.  YES, in the 2005 Dynasty, as was stated many times and just recently...there is a BOARD #6 in the RRB. It's function is THREE FOLD.  First a DUAL or BI DIRECTIONAL Charging signal for the 200 AMP Intellitec Big Boy Solenoid. Then, it gets a NEGATIVE signal or GROUND from the Front for BATT BOOST.  MOST Monaco's work the opposite.  POSITIVE to the Solenoid. As an aside, it also controls the Charging circuit relay for the BLACK pin that charges the Toad's Battery or recharges a Battery on a trailer for the electric brakes.

NOW>>>> It gets interesting.  The 200 A solenoid (not so on the 100 A) is NOT rated for CONTINUOUS duty.  SO, you put 12 VDC to each terminal of the COIL  That LOCKS IT IN.  BUT, leave it energized (as some folks read on the INTERNET....JAM A GOLF TEE UNDER IT..  That is the same as pulling the switch on an electric chair. It BURNS UP THE COIL.

SO, the Solenoid is made to work two ways.  A BRIEF (less than say 30 Seconds) FULL VOLTAGE CIRCUIT.  Boost is the example.

BUT, when the Solenoid is the Charging Solenoid that LOCKS or connects the Chassis to the House for CHARGING....the COIL would burn up quickly.

The Proprietary #6 Board then PULSES the Control Signal. In effect. Say 20 to 50 Hertz or times per second...a PULSE is sent out.  SO, if the Pulse is sent 20 Times a second...the WIDTH or POTENTIAL ON TIME is 50 Milliseconds.  (1000/20). NOW the intended voltage for the coil is around 8 Volts. That is NOT enough to burn up the coil.  SO, there is NO reheostat or such.  The LENGTH of the pulse is about 2/3 ON and 1/3 off. SO, if it was 50 seconds...than it would be ON for 32 and OFF for 16...and the other 2 Milliseconds is the movement.

OK....KEEP FOLLOWING. On the Dynasty...the solenoid always has a PLUS 12 VDC (or say 13 when charging). Therefore the #6 Board PULSES the NEGAITIVE signal. Put a VOM on one terminal....when NOT energized.  POSTIVE 12 VDC.  Work you way under and check the OTHER... DEAD. BUT, when it charges...the POSTIVE stays FULL TIME...and the lower or back side signal is a PULSED NEGATIVE... 

NOW...just to make this MORE confusing.  Monaco also uses the BIRD Diesel2 Bi-Directional Control Module. It puts out a 4 VDC pulse.  That is why the Camelots and such's Big Boys run COOLER and QUIETER...  the Voltage, if measured and "AVERAGED" on a DVOM is around 4 VDC...and sometimes LOWER.  BUT the SOLENOID contact on the BIRD module is POSITIVE and the OTHER SIDE of the COIL is directly connected to GROUND.

The #6 Board, and I am NOT the expert, is not logical, but Intellitec designed it for Monaco.  Negative or Positive....  a PULSED signal is used to reduce the HOLDING Voltage..

YES... I had to ADD this as many are aware and will ADD this.

My head is spinning...but Monaco is the ONLY "vehicle" that I have ever worked on with Negative Switching for a COIL. All my years as Maintenance Manager (100 andat least 10 - 15 electricians or techs), i NEVER remember a machine or line, if it had DC, to EVER use a NEGATIVE switched coil signal.

Time for an aspirin...

 

 

[TomV48]

This conversation has gotten a little deep for me and I'm having trouble following it on my phone but. 

Start with the issue of the chassis batteries brand new batteries can be killed overnight so on shore power my chassis batteries do not charge.

They only charge from the engine running or an outside charging source.   One of these days I'll put a bidirectional charging relay in but right now the factory does not charge the chassis batteries from my inverter charger. 

The row of Bosch relays may be all the same. My experience has been that boss automotive relays are readily available in auto parts stores. 

I got lost in the conversation after salesman switch. 

It's purpose is to turn off all the lights and other 12 volt uses in the house except the refrigerator.  This, when a salesman is showing it to a customer they can be sure everything got shut off as they walk out the door.   I use it to be sure my water pump is off and that way I don't risk springing a leak in my absence.  But it will also kill any light you left inadvertently turned on.  The best ones are a latching relay so there is no ambient load from them at all.  My coach is an 05 and has a latching relay my friend has an 03 and his relay is a constant draw to have the house turned on and turning it off save that ambient load.   He just decided to jump around it and not use it because he'd rather trust himself to turn off the lights then worry about a solenoid running an ambient load on his house batteries. 

Good luck on the engine starting I will follow to see if you came up with a solution.

 

 

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

29 minutes ago, TomV48 said:

This conversation has gotten a little deep for me and I'm having trouble following it on my phone but. 

Start with the issue of the chassis batteries brand new batteries can be killed overnight so on shore power my chassis batteries do not charge.

They only charge from the engine running or an outside charging source.   One of these days I'll put a bidirectional charging relay in but right now the factory does not charge the chassis batteries from my inverter charger. 

The row of Bosch relays may be all the same. My experience has been that boss automotive relays are readily available in auto parts stores. 

I got lost in the conversation after salesman switch. 

It's purpose is to turn off all the lights and other 12 volt uses in the house except the refrigerator.  This, when a salesman is showing it to a customer they can be sure everything got shut off as they walk out the door.   I use it to be sure my water pump is off and that way I don't risk springing a leak in my absence.  But it will also kill any light you left inadvertently turned on.  The best ones are a latching relay so there is no ambient load from them at all.  My coach is an 05 and has a latching relay my friend has an 03 and his relay is a constant draw to have the house turned on and turning it off save that ambient load.   He just decided to jump around it and not use it because he'd rather trust himself to turn off the lights then worry about a solenoid running an ambient load on his house batteries. 

Good luck on the engine starting I will follow to see if you came up with a solution.

 

 

 

 

Yes…getting DEEP. Many members often discuss how their rig works…but, and this has beeb suggested offline by many experienced contributors that one should pull the prints and also read the owner’s manual for the OP and then, POST, if appropriate. Your rig, on page 307, states that you have HOUSE Charging when the engine is running…..but NOT any Chassis Charging…so…to clarify…and maybe shovel sway some of the excess info…

Your rig is way different from the 1996. You only have TWO solenoids. 

• The BOOST which, which is also the SAME solenoid that connects, via a controller (unknown without pulling your prints).  
• The SALESMAN Solenoid.  Which IS the latching style with a spring loaded momentary contact switch or BATTERY CUT OFF. It, as stated is NOT s continuous draw. It is recognizable in that there will be TWO Fuse Holders on it, but probably only one fuse.

SO…back to the 1996.  Our prints are limited.  BUT, potentially, there could be THREE solenoids.

• There IS….based on prints and verification, a CHASSIS POWER Solenoid.  MOST LIKEY UP FRONT.  Assumed, but without a picture or maybe the IDENTIFICATION, which has been outlined. The present Dynasty have continous OR 12 VDC to the coil, a Latching relay require a momentary pulse or signal. SO, until the solenoid is tested via a simple turn on the key and listen and measure voltage on studs and coil….this is a guess. BUT IT IS THERE.
• The OTHER KNOWN solenoid is the BOOST. Now whether this also controlled, doubtful, one way House Bank charging…..the prints are inadequate.
• Next, and since we have NO Manual….possibly a Salesman Solenoid.

The OP posted several times. And asked and provided information but, may not have started or done the troubleshooting outlined.  NEVER trust a PO or Tech to install the equivalent part. So, hopefully, he will do the troubleshooting or has been swapping or such. Without hard voltage readings, advising which components are OK or DEFECTIVE is a crap shoot.

 

 

[Huddii]

Hi there. I have a 96 Windsor as well. I went to start it this morning and the same clunking noise under the front dash happened. I replaced the solenoid and still the same sound. I checked the battery I have 12.4v I checked the solenoid when, when the power is off I have 12.4v coming to the solenoid when I turn the ignition to start it it goes up to 100-150v. 
the solenoid under the bed was replaced as well and it only reads about 2v. Also my alt charge light and transmission pad have constant power for some reason. Can any one please help me with some suggestions. I have checked all of my fuses and nothing is showing blown I’m not sure why I don’t have 12v at the back solenoid. Does any one possibly know? 

[Benjamin]

Well, that's a fun one! 

First, 12.4V is a little low, possibly pointing to drained batteries. 

The alt charge light and transmission pad being on could be from a failed alternator voltage regulator, could just as likely be from an ignition switch or similar issue also. They'd both drain the batteries over time, pointing back to the batteries.  I would double check the resting battery voltage, then voltage under load (trying to crank), or just put a charger on for an hour and try again. 

The voltage going to 100V almost has to be 100 mv? meaning basically zero volts, but I don't understand exactly which solenoid you're measuring, so I'll leave that for now. 

[Ivan K]

Seriously 100-150V up from 12.4? That would take some magic and smoke the coil. Isn't it a drop to just mV? As a result of bad connection the source possibly.

[Huddii]

Thanks for helping me! You guys are right I was reading my multi reader wrong it does come down to mv.  For the sake of the thread, let’s call the solenoid in the front solenoid one and the solenoid in the back solenoid two. 
 

With the ignition off the front solenoid reads 12.24 volts roughly. When I turn the key to start it goes down to 4.6mv.  
 

with the battery it reads 12.36 volts when the ignition is off and with it’s on it reads the same 12.36 volts this is a brand new battery from the store I’m sure it could use a charge but it’s not pulling any power from the battery when the ignition switch is turned. 
 

The solenoid in the back reads 2.7v when the ignition is on and 2.7v when it is off.  

[jimc99999]

You mentioned constant power to your transmission pad and alt fail light. Do you mean when ignition is off your alt fail and transmission pad is on? If so, either your ignition switch is faulty or wired wrong, or the solenoid you replaced is faulty or wired wrong. Since the solenoid is the thing you changed and now your transmission pad and alt fail light are on when ignition is off, I'd say you should double-check that solenoid and its wiring.

[Huddii]

Yes I have power to the alt charge and my trans pad is on when my ignition is off. The only way it turns off is if I turn off the chassis power with the kill switch in the back under the bed.  I am 90% sure I wired it wrong I just can’t forgive out how to wire it back properly.   Also I no longer have power to my leveling system at the controls when I turn my ignition to the auxiliary (all the way to the left). I’m stumped at what u did wrong 

[PauleJoubran]

So I've checked the rear controller and I've tried starting the rig from the engine compartment with the ignition in the run position and I get the same clunking sound.  Flipped the switch a few times and tried starting it again from both the front and the rear and nothing.  With the ignition in the on, run or start position, my transmission panel does NOT light up.  So I don't know if I'm in neutral or not.  Maybe this will spark a suggestion or maybe this is the reason my mysterious 10amp fuse blows?  I could try unplugging the transmission controller from underneath (I don't have the slightest clue what I'll find here) and replacing the fuse to see if the controller causes the fuse to blow.  I'll try this next weekend.

[Huddii]

I’m at a stuck point. I have rewired the solenoid and all of my power is back to normal. I am back to square one when I turn the key I have 2 clicks under the front dash. I still have no voltage pull from the battery when the key is turned.  I tried to jump the starter and the motor home fired up right away. I checked my positive cable going to the starter and there is no power going to it. I have only 2 volts at the second solenoid in the back when the key is on or off. I don’t know what else to check or what else could be wrong. Can any one give me some help please! 

[jimc99999]

On mine at least, the starter power supply is a direct run from the battery so it always has 12V at the starter. The starter solenoid is the only thing with switched power related to the starter. It's not clear if you jumped the solenoid to start the motor, or if you supplied power to the large 12V power lug and used the ignition to start the motor. 

Edited August 11 by jimc99999

[Huddii]

I took a jumper cable and placed it on the positive battery terminal and placed the other side of the jumper cable on the solenoid on the starter and it started. I also have a direct line from my battery to the starter. That line doesn’t read any power. That’s why I’m so confused. Sorry for not explaining properly thanks for helping! 

[Ivan K]

Seems there lies your problem. Follow the positive cable from the big starter solenoid, it may likely be coming from the always hot pole on battery cutoff switch unless it goes directly to the battery positive. Clean the connections and inspect the crimp ends for corrosion of the copper leads.

[jimc99999]

1 hour ago, Huddii said:

I took a jumper cable and placed it on the positive battery terminal and placed the other side of the jumper cable on the solenoid on the starter and it started. I also have a direct line from my battery to the starter. That line doesn’t read any power. That’s why I’m so confused. Sorry for not explaining properly thanks for helping! 

I think we might still be talking past each other here. So to be clear, did you run a jumper cable from the battery to the:

1. starter 12V pole with the big cable, then went inside the coach and started it with the ignition and it started and idled, not just cranked?
2. solenoid (small wire), and the coach started or cranked as soon as you provided power to the solenoid?

If it was #1, then you just need to trace the big power cable back from the starter until you find 12V. I think mine goes to a power distribution block where one cable goes to the chassis 12V cutoff switch, and the other goes to the starter, but I haven't looked for a while. Or like Ivan mentioned, the starter power may come from the hot side of the battery cutoff switch. In either case, they are big cables in the back of the coach, pretty easy to follow, clean the connections, and test for power.

If #2, then your problem could be anything from your ignition switch to any solenoid, relay or wire in that starting circuit. That solenoid only receives power when the ignition is in the start position, not the run position, because when the starter solenoid is powered the big starter motor runs. When you turn the ignition to the "run" position, you will hear a couple clunks in the front dash area because solenoids and relays that are activated the whole time the ignition is on will be powered up.  Turning the ignition to the "start" position also powers the "pull" coil in the fuel cutoff solenoid; when the ignition is in the "run" position only the "hold" coil is powered.

And when you say "the coach started" do you mean it started up and kept running? Was the ignition switch on or off? Or did it just crank but not start?

 

Edited August 11 by jimc99999

[Huddii]

I did #2 with the ignition switch and the run position, the engine started and ran for about 3 hours just fine with no issues, I ran it to charge the battery, I have a new battery, new gold connectors on the battery that said gave it more contact.  I traced the wire from the starter directly in to the battery box and on to the positive terminal. I have replaced the solenoid under the dash and I have replaced the solenoid in the engine compartment on the passenger side. The front solenoid has 12.34v when the ignition is off. 3.3mv when the ignition is one turn to the right. And it has 12.34v when the ignition is held all the way to the right to start the engine on the 2 bigger terminals. The solenoid in the engine compartment on the passenger side does not read anything, It just jumps around.  I’m not sure how to test the relays I have one in. The front I believe and one in the back. 

Edited August 11 by Huddii

[Benjamin]

Just to be absolutely sure, to jump the solenoid, you connected the battery positive to the SMALL terminal on the starter solenoid, correct? and the key was in run so it started and continued to run.  And the key is functioning normally except not starting, the other lights work and the trans does not stay on when the key is off, correct?

I would take a smaller wire than a jumper cable, you can use the jumper cable to clamp one end to the battery positive, then crank the engine for a second the same way you did with the jumper cable.  Then go to the back relay/solenoid (not on the starter), jump the small terminal that's not grounded to see if the engine cranks. If not, see if you can trace which big wire on that relay goes to the starter solenoid and jump that one to confirm that the engine cranks from there.  If you can't trace the big wires, then try both to see if either one will make the engine crank.  That info should tell you that relay is the start relay, and if it's functioning when it gets the signal. 

If you want to continue checking voltages, you might need to clean the terminal bolt ends to read a good voltage.  Corrosion is too hard to read through. A piece of coarse sandpaper to get the ends to bare metal is best.  If you disconnect the battery you could use a file.  Don't bother reading the wire or terminal on the wire, the terminal bolt is what the relay sees, so clean that and read there.  

[Huddii]

To the first part of your question, the answer is yes, my transmission pad only lights up when I turned the ignition to the run position,. I will have to go get a coil of wire to test out and try to jump the solenoid in the back under the bed. 
I will try this and see what I come up with I appreciate all of your help. It’s a good relief to have a group of people willing to at least try and help with these old coach’s there is so little videos showing how to fix things it’s hard to know what you’re doing. 

[Benjamin]

If you don't have a smaller wire handy, the jumper cable will work with a small wire pinched in the end. I just wanted to make sure you were talking about jumping the small terminal on the starter solenoid, not one of the two  big terminals.  You should also be able to jump the big terminal to the small terminal with a small wire. 

Then check the other rear solenoid/relay, either jumping it, or with the terminals cleaned up and testing voltage with somebody turning the key to start. 

[Huddii]

So I ended up using a small wire to jump the solenoid from one big terminal to one small terminal. It sparked and clicked I had my mom turn the key and nothing happened. The starter didn’t engage or hum or anything I didn’t hear a click in the ignition relay in the back either, but I have changed that out with the relay with the one next to it that run the ac and the ac still work after the relays were swapped. I don’t think it’s a relay or a solenoid it’s either a wire or my ignition switch I feel like. How would I test the ignition switch? Or is it ruled out because it is sending power to the front relay and solenoid.