1996 Monaco Windsor - Engine won’t turn over

[PauleJoubran]

Hey guys,

I'm new here and did a search on "1996 Monaco Windsor" and didn't really find anything that helps me with this.  Here's what I have and my issue:

1996 Monaco Windsor Turbo Diesel 32' with no slides.  Engine wont turn.  Hearing a thud when I turn the ignition.

When I first bought this, it wasn't moving anywhere fast.  I found out it was the exhaust manifold leaking and also the turbo had a cracked base.  I replaced both and the fuel filter and got this beast to move.  It'll need an oil change next.

I put in new chassis and house batteries and have not had a real issue since.  I would start the rig every month and let it idle for about 30-40 minutes before shutting it down again.  The rig is always plugged into shore power.  There were no upgrades to the rig when I purchased it other than cosmetic.  All buttons, switches and fixtures are mostly original equipment.  I added a 55" Smart TV and a Washer/Dryer combo and plumbed it in myself.  I also added a Natures Generator Powerhouse with (2) 410W Panels on the roof.  Would like to add more but there isn't enough room unless I cover the skylights or vents.  I haven't actually used the generator yet but plan on getting to it this weekend.

Up until now.  This morning I moved the rig away from the back wall to get into the engine bay and had it sit there for roughly 1/2 hour.  I tried to start it up and all I hear is a deep click when i turn the key.  I found out which solenoid was making the clicking noise but stopped at that point.  After physically searching for the solenoid, I noticed one of the solenoids (looks newer) was very hot to the touch.  So hot that you couldn't touch it for more than a a couple seconds before scolding your fingers.  I don't think this is normal.  I don't want to order solenoids in guessing what I need.  I've searched everywhere online and can't find a service manual, owner manual or brochure remotely close to what I have.  If anyone here can help me figure this out along with switches, maintenance and other important information, I would greatly appreciate your help/advise.

I'm away during the week but the rig is always plugged into shore power.  I have one window open and  have both ceiling exhaust fans running along with a fan in the middle circulating air.  I have the refrigerator operating on electric and 2 small LED's in the back always on.  I also have a couple WIFI cameras on all the time.

[Dr4Film]

Too old of a coach for me to offer any help, but any solenoid too hot to touch for a second or two is not a good sign.

[Frank Bergamo]

Refrigerator running on electric is where I would start. Turn the fridge off or turn to propane and see what happens. Takes tons of power to run fridge on electric, not the best or most efficient way to run fridge. Hope this helps.

[PauleJoubran]

I would have never guessed.  It's just a tiny little thing.  ok.  I'll check that when I get back on Friday.  Thanks for your input.

[vito.a]

Start by checking the voltage on the chassis batteries.  It's important that you understand you have two sets of batteries, one set that powers the house/coach and another set that starts and powers the engine/chassis.  

We owned a 1997 Windsor.  I think we had to add a battery maintainer to keep the chassis batteries charged.  The Freedom 20 inverter charges the house batteries (if set up properly).  

Next check all the battery terminals.  I'd clean the chassis battery terminals even if they look good.  I'd also connect a battery charger to the chassis batteries as soon as possible.  

Will your generator start?

Good luck!

[jacwjames]

In the downloads section there are wiring diagrams for 1996 Dynasty, which is one step above the Windsor.  It my provide some guidance on your rig as the starting circuit may be similar. 

I think I start checking voltages at the chassis battery and work your way through the circuit.   Your starter circuit may be getting power from the battery or a stud the battery is wired to.  Mine has a pass through stud on the rear passenger side electrical compartment, the starter is connected on the back side of this.

Check the grounds also.

If you can take pictures of the hot solenoid and post and also the electrical panel it might help. 

[Benjamin]

There's a lot of information included that shouldn't have anything to do with the starting circuit. Like Jim said, start with the chassis battery voltage, if that's good, get a helper to turn the key while you check voltage at different points in the circuit, such as the start relay if you can find it, or directly at the starter solenoid. That's the direct way to see where the power is going and isn't going.

[PauleJoubran]

Thanks Vito.  I understand the difference in house vs chassis batteries.  I have (2) Lithium Ion house batteries and (2) 12V Lead Acid Batteries.  All 4 are new, charged and terminals are clean and tight.  Generator starts without a problem from the dash and from the bedroom.  Without some type of schematic or a basic understanding of what some of these solenoids do, I'm sort of stuck.  I know I have a solenoid in the dash compartment (photos) where all the fuses are located and I have 2 or 3 under the Queen bed on the passenger side wall (photos).  I don't mind buying solenoids, I just want to buy the right ones.  I'm pretty sure that solenoid I was talking about that's hot to the touch is either faulty or the wrong type.  I've attached photos of what I could find and labeled them accordingly.  The solenoid that's labeled "Culprit" is the one I can feel clicking when I have someone turn the ignition switch on and off.  This weekend I'll ohm the connections to verify the solenoid is operational or not.

[Tom Wallis]

I'm not sure which solenoid is hot but any solenoid too hot to touch is probably bad. Also, if it's that hot it's drawing current that could be discharging batteries. The shiny solenoid is a continuous duty solenoid and is safe to have on for long periods of time. It's probably there for charging batteries in one direction or the other or both directions. It should be off when nothing is charging.

[cbr046]

Measure chassis voltage with ignition key in "start".  Does it drop a few volts or a bunch? 

Same for across the suspect solenoid.  Several volts of drop across the solenoid will heat it up pretty good.  IR^2 and all that.

Good luck and keep us posted.

- bob

[Benjamin]

I don't see the "culprit" label either.  I wouldn't read too much into a hot solenoid/relay.  If it's on for long enough some of them will get hot even with no current.  Unplug from shore power and it should cool off or else it would drain the battery fast.  One thing to pay attention to, does the relay click when the key reaches "run" or "start"?  there should be both, but the start relay may be one of the small plastic cubes and not be loud enough to hear.  I would not use ohms for much of anything, test voltage under load in this situation. Ohms lies, voltage under load always tells the truth. 

[PauleJoubran]

This is some helpful stuff. I appreciate everyone’s comments. I labeled each photo but apparently it doesn’t appear. The culprit (I think anyways) is the dirtiest solenoid in the photos. The one that appears first (at least in my phone). The pretty shiny solenoid is the one that remains hot.

My son and I will be working on it this weekend and I’ll post more of what I find. I can’t thank all of you enough with your help. Thank you!!

[MyronTruex]

10 hours ago, Benjamin said:

I don't see the "culprit" label either.  I wouldn't read too much into a hot solenoid/relay.  If it's on for long enough some of them will get hot even with no current.  Unplug from shore power and it should cool off or else it would drain the battery fast.  One thing to pay attention to, does the relay click when the key reaches "run" or "start"?  there should be both, but the start relay may be one of the small plastic cubes and not be loud enough to hear.  I would not use ohms for much of anything, test voltage under load in this situation. Ohms lies, voltage under load always tells the truth. 

Words of wisdom here.

Plugged into shoreline may be activating a battery combining solenoid and when on all the time can get too hot to touch. I am putting together a video on such a situation.

Ohms lies, voltage under load always tells the truth is a fantastic comment. And a digital voltmeter will lie to you if the circuit is not under load. 

[Rikadoo]

Mornin Paule, so from some one working in the field more than i want to i see more than my share of solinoid issues. What i can tell you is that shinny one labled 12V appears to to be a intermintet type, there designation is they can not handle long turn use. If left on the case will get so hot you cant touch them. In the world of parts most “parts people” today have no clue what your wanting. Nowdays it pays to know what you want, and evenknow what you have when you get it. I use amazon alot cause of out parts people here, an because of my experience i have learned if the one i trust the most (cole hersee) is out of stock then what ever i get in its place, before i install it i just connect 12V to it (the little stud an ground) an let it sit for a few minutets. If the case gets soo hot you cant handle it you have a intermintet style, which predomently should only be used on start circuits. One way to tell your system is to connect a volt meter to the little wire and your other probe to ground, then just turn key to on, look at your meter, does it show battery volts? If it does then the application is requiring a continuous duty type solenoid. 
one last thing, i had a 1998 come in customer complaint was it wont turn over with the key, but if he jumpered the solinoid it would, long story, it ended up i found a immobilizer type of alarm mounted inside the center drawer in the dash, i had to take the drawer out to get to it. It finally 💩the bed so i just had to bypass the crank circuit wires an then it would start. Sorry for no pic 

[RoadTripper2084]

If it were me I'd try giving the starter solenoid (on the starter itself) a gentle but firm whack with a large wrench to see if that common quick-fix does the trick. If it does, it's your starter. Then I'd check the power at the starter, and work backwards from there if there wasn't any/sufficient.

[Tom Cherry]

I’m starting from the basics….and also what limited resources we have.  Odds are….and this appears to be logical….there is a set of prints in the files. They are for a DYNASTY…but based on all i think I know and others….the Dynasty and Windsor main chassis and house was close…so let’s go there.

 

DOWNLOAD THIS

OK…to your point.  Throwing money and guessing ain’t the way.

There are at least TWO Solenoids that I know (ok not betting the family fortune).  
 

First….the print days IGNITION Solenoid.  That one is easy to find.  Out your VOM on one….choose whichever.  Put on the two small coil wires.  Then turn on the ignition.  NO COIL POWER….keep searching.  From the print, you should be able to locate it.  That supplies CHASSIS power to the entire charging and chassis system….headlights and all the switches and the whole mess.

Now there will ALSO be a BOOST soleoind.  Key ON….  Then have your son push the BATT BOOST or BOOST switch.  There will THEN be power to that solenoid.  You can FEEL it engage. He can click it on and off (spring loaded momentary contact switch).  That connects the HOUSE and CHASSIS banks….my GUT and I know that the WR stands for White Rodgers is probably the new one.  OPPS!!  MYSTERY.  The plate data is confusing.  Ordinarily that is a 100 AMP solenoid.

It you use the SEARCH BOX in the upper right….use WHITE RODGERS or WHITE or RODGERS.  Then click on Everywhere….then select TOPICS.  There are countless posts…and many have the proper PN.  I’d google the WR PN on yours.  If the specs are NOT 12VDC CONTINUOUS 100A, then the person that put it in goofed and thought there was only ONE white rodgers solenoid and bought it.  IT DOES HAPPEN….way to OFTEN.  I can fix it.  I took it out. I saw one that looked like it. I ordered it. IT DON’T WORK….  Did you read and understand???

Now…there is probably one MORE.  IF you have a BATTERY CUTOFF switch on the left side as you come in…then you have the SALESMAN solenoid.  Read the domestic electrical system chapter in the manual.  Hope you have read that and the chassis. MUCH INFO THERE.

So, if you have that switch, there is another solenoid.  It is different. It is a LATCHING style.  There will be, typically one or two auto type fuse holders in the plastic housing.  Have your son push it down….the solenoid will click.  Keep doing this.  There is NO coil voltage when the switch is in the center spring loaded position.  Up latches in the SOLENOID ON.  Down (momentarily) latches it OFF.

[PauleJoubran]

This is excellent fellas. I can't emphasize enough how appreciative I am with all this information.  I just remembered something. 

I moved the rig forward about 4 feet in order to get into the engine compartment and connect to my EV (I have a Natures Generator charging the EV. I ran line voltage through the chassis from where the generator is stored to the ChargePoint charger and store the ChargePoint in the engine bay). There's a very, very slim chance, I may have bumped the ignition selector switch to the rear. 

I'll check this first when I get back this evening but the fact that 30-40 minutes later, when I went to back it up against the block wall, I can only hear a deep thump (the sound comes from a solenoid) when trying to turn the engine over. 

I doubt this is the issue because if I remember correctly, if the switch was set to "rear" in the engine bay, than the ignition would give zero noise when trying to turn over the engine.

So for this weekend: I plan on ordering a couple of these solenoids and relays as spare parts but I have several more questions before tackling this over the weekend.  I'll be sure to take plenty of photos in the process:

1. There's talk of a "Salesman Switch".

      a. What is the purpose of this?

      b. How do I test it's operation?

      c. Is it needed?

      d. If so, does anyone have a part number?

      e. If not, how do I bypass it?

2. Also, I know of two types of solenoids and relays in my rig that I can physically touch.  I plan on ordering a couple of each of these parts as spares but I want to know I'll be ordering the correct ones.  Remember, the one that's continuously very hot to the touch is the shiny silver one with the label 12V on it.  It has 2-large lugs and 1-small lug in the center.

      a. (2) White Rogers 70-111224-5A with 2-large lugs and 2-small lugs in the center

      b. (2) ??? 12V with 2-large lugs and 1-small lug in the center (the one that stays very hot to the touch). Does anyone have the correct part number for this solenoid?

      c. (4) Bosch Relay 0332019155 12V 30A (5)

      d. (1) BXEEF JD191E-1513 12V 20/30A (this one looks newer. I'm guessing it replaced a Bosch?)

      e. (8) Relays In the center console cavity.  I don't know the Mfg. or MN's yet.

Edited July 26 by PauleJoubran

[Benjamin]

The salesman switch is on the house side, it shouldn't have anything to do with starting, unless it was hooked up completely wrong and drained the chassis batteries somehow. 

I would not go replacing relays without testing first. Especially the hardwired ones are easy to mess up and end up with more problems. The plug in square ones can be swapped around to test, or better yet, figure out which ones they are, then test with a multimeter and test leads, or a Powerprobe, not much to hurt on a 96 with a powerprobe. 

[Rikadoo]

Paule, so fyi that shinney solinoid with one small wire, the single wire solinoids mean that they ground thru the body of the solinoid, where as a double small wire solinoid uses a external ground. I always choose the latter even though it means i have to add a wire and ground it. That way you have options to build circuits as you want them, and with the way the part availabilty situation is today your not “stuck” if you just cant get what “YOU” want.

[jimc99999]

You're probably going to have to trace wires from the batteries through the battery cutoffs to those various solenoids in the engine bay to see which is which. The salesman switch activates a solenoid that connects/disconnects 12V house circuits. The boost solenoid will have large cables to both house and chassis batteries and should only be activated while holding the boost button on the dash. There should be a battery isolator (rectangular device with small fins) with a large cable with 12V+ from the alternator and chassis batteries on one side and a large cable to house batteries on the other side.  

You mentioned the no-start condition started when you were doing things in the rear of the coach, so I'd suggest flipping the switches on the rear run panel a couple times and then setting it to start from the front. If it still doesn't start, set the rear run panel to start from the rear and try starting with the rear start switch. I believe that still requires the ignition switch to be in the "run" position.

Also when you turn the ignition on, make sure the transmission is in neutral, if it's in drive or reverse it likely won't start. 

 

[Tom Cherry]

GOOD FEEDBACK.  YES…starting has NO IMPACT or INPUT from the Salesman switch.  BUT, instead of ordering and replacing…the SHOTGUN approach, one needs to Identify the solenoids and then understand their functions.

Th earlier model, we KNOW, had a Chassis Solenoid….on the print.  Personally, spending time and identifying the SOLENOID and what makes it work is my first step.

If you have a HOT solenoid…..one of TWO issues….the coil is running way too hot….shorted?  OR the contacts inside look like the craters of the moon rather than the infant’s fanny.

You ALSO can never trust a tech or a previous owner to replace with the correct one or a different vendor’s SAME SPECS.

The method is simple and boring,…but we have had way more members here than I can count of all four appendages that just poked around and replaced and then the NEW one failed or didn’t work.

YES spares are nice. But the charging system on the MH is like a crank wall telephone in a 30’s movie.

You isolator can be replaced. But we have had folks spend almost $175. They could have put in a Blue Seas ML-ACR for $230.  That is rugged. Proven. Provides you with BI or TWO WAY charigng (house as you drive from alternator….and….chassis from inverter/charger while plugged in to shore or genny.

GET IT STARTED….then keep researching and learn.  The Chassis Solenoid is NEEDED.  Spare or not.  But the BOOST would be replaced by the ML-ACR.

IF you have a Battery Cutoff Switch by the door….that is the THIRD solenoid.  It is worthless….move one cable over or put the NAPA 781144 Jumper on.

BUT….you gotta identify each solenoid….good luck…

[PauleJoubran]

Update: At the back of the rig near the older solenoid with 1 small terminal, we located an open (blown) fuse. Traced the wiring to one side of the fuse block to the positive terminal of the house batteries and the other side of the fuse block to head towards the front of the rig.  I’m assuming the side that heads towards the front of the rig is shorted somewhere directly to ground or has a faulty component attached to it. 

Open fuse: lead to lead with the fuse out, reads 13.2v

Solenoid in the front dash area:

Key in the off position: large lug to large lug reads 13.2v  Small lug to small lug reads 0v

key in the on position: I read the opposite voltage. 

Solenoid in the back of the bus:

Key in the off position: large lug to large lug reads 0.v  Center small lug to ground reads 12.8v

key in the on position: I read the opposite voltage. 

key in the turn over position: large lug to large lug reads 0.v  Center small lug to ground reads 12.8v

Hot Solenoid in the back of the bus:

Key in the off position: large lug to large lug reads 0.v  Small lug to small lug reads 0v

key in the on position: I read the same voltage. 

key in the turn over position: large lug to large lug reads 0.v Small lug to small lug reads 12.8

[Benjamin]

Are you assuming the fuse blew from a short or faulty component based solely on the voltage reading?  Any load on that circuit will show that voltage, so I would NOT assume a short based on the voltage, an ohm reading will estimate the current and whether it's shorted currently.

Solenoid in the front dash, is functioning correctly, turning on with the key on.

Solenoid in the back of the bus, seems to be functioning correctly, I don't know what is on in the key off and start positions, but off in the key on position. Maybe somebody else can figure that out.

Hot Solenoid in the back of the bus, does not seem to be functioning correctly, seems to be stuck "on" with current flowing all the time or else it wouldn't get hot.  Check voltage to ground on each of the large terminals in the three key positions.

[PauleJoubran]

Thanks Benjamin. I didn’t mention replacing the fuse twice. I’m assuming a direct short to ground or a faulty component because I’ve tried replacing the fuse twice and the moment it’s connected, it sparks and blows the fuse.

I’m thinking the Hot solenoid is activated when the shore power is plugged in. I haven’t tried disconnecting shore power when I was testing everything but when the ignition is set in the “on” position or “start” position, shouldn’t the shore power automatically disconnect?

Edited July 29 by PauleJoubran

[Benjamin]

Sure could be the shore power is heating that up, I don't know, and I don't assume it's the same as it was when built, so test it with shore power to figure out what's going on.

The ohms reading can be useful for testing the blown fuse circuit until you find the low resistance portion that is blowing the fuses.  Amps = volts/resistance in ohms, so you can estimate amps based on ohms reading, depending on the quality of your meter, but close enough usually.