TRW Steering Box - Watts Link - Cross Bars - Bilstein

[Dwight Lindsey]

A few years ago, I had the Sheppard steering box replaced with a TRW and  bought the Monaco Watts front Watts Link.  Mike Huges, owner of Monaco Watts, did the install.

Handling was improved, but I still had some apparent play in the steering.

On our trip to Baja in March, my wife complained about the shock absorbers.  We have about 75,000 miles on the Koni shocks, so I thought it would help peace in the family if I replaced them. I thought I would try the Source Engineering Bilstein shocks, so I bought them.

Also, the roads we were on in Baja were narrow so any play in the steering made things even more white knuckle .  .. so I wanted to do the Rear Watts Link and Cross Bars.

I bought the Rear Watts Link and Rear Cross Bars from Monaco Watts.  Mike doesn't do installs any longer, so I made an appointment with Redlands Truck & RV. 

Redlands installed the Watts Link, Rear Cross Bars and Source Engineering Bilstein shocks, and greased the chassis including the Monaco Watts equipment (Front Watts, Rear Watts, Cross Bars).  They did all that in one day.  It was expensive, but very well done.

On the way back I noticed that the coach handled better.  Almost no apparent play in the steering.  I don't know which component to credit, but I imagine the rear cross bars helped a lot.

The shocks seem a bit stiffer than the Konis they replaced.  I don't mind, but I expect to hear complaints from my wife when we go to Baja next time.  She's really complaining about the roads . . .  But Baja is worth it.  Magical.

Dwight

[vito.a]

I've heard from several owners that the rear Watts improves steering more than the front.  It's a case of the tail wagging the dog.    

As I read your post I wondered if the Source Engineering Bilstein shocks were stiffer than the Koni shocks.  I think a nice compromise would be Source Bilstein shocks on the rear and Koni shocks on the front.  

How many air bags does your Knight have?

[Dwight Lindsey]

I'm on the 8 air bag chassis.  The 2004 Knight was 4 air bags, the 2005 Knight is 8 air bags

[throgmartin]

Van and Craig did the complete chassis treatment for me - Watt's, rear cross bars and TRW steering gear. The change was night and day. Since everything was done at once I have no comparison to individual upgrades. My advice is not to do it piece meal but do it all at once. Each upgrade fixes a different deficiency of the roadmaster chassis.

In regard to shocks, I went with the Bilstein comfort shocks. The source shocks are nothing more than a re-valved OEM Koni or Bilstein. We are driving a 30,000 plus lb motorcoach not a NASCAR Cup race car. When I asked Craig and Van about the special Source shocks they both told me to save my money and buy OEM Bilsteins. Since they are Roadmaster chassis experts I listened to them. As a sidenote, the best riding chassis in today's production coach market is the Spartan K-2 and K-3 mountain master. They all come out of the factory with OEM Bilstein comfort shocks.

In as far as ride, one of the things I did that improved the ride considerably was changing tires on my RR8R chassis. I went from 275's to 295's which gave me more load capacity while allowing me to run at reduced tire pressures. I will always believe that Monaco should have put all RR8R chassis on 295's.  

[Tom Cherry]

Each of us has our OWN Story as well as your OWN History

I went through all this starting in 2010...based on what I was reading here....the HIGHLIGHTS...

• Added the Blue Ox TruCenter in2010. David Pratt had done such and recommended. I also talked to Barry at Josam's He liked the other brand. WHY, his techs would NOT do electrical. If I did the wiring great. Called Brett Howard. He was the Ex Manager of the Monaco owned Wildwood Repair/Warranty shop in Florida. He often worked on the ULTIMATE stabilizer, the Howard (name) which died when the owner did. He had driven and installed many stabilizers and also helped evaluate the Blue Ox. ONLY ONE.  You MUST have an adjustment or centering.
• Shocks GONE at 20K. GY tires SCARED me. Put on Bridgestone tires.
• Started evaluating SHOCKS. Was ready to order Bilstein STOCK (OEM) Comforts but folks here raved about Source.  Called Jim and Scott. The Source are DESIGNED, and PROPRIETARY. They have valving to reduce the OSCILLATIONS (think about an ocean liner going up and down in heavy seas).  Source explained that they had paid for the Bilstein "VAN" and then they bought several Monaco's and got many Monaco owners to participate in the development. They also hired professional drivers. This was done like a PROFESSIONAL test...not seat of the pants. BLIND survey. Driver and each passenger were NOT allowed to talk. Then there was a long EVALUATION FORM. The Bilstein distributor would NOT sell me the shocks without checking with the Motor Home Bilstein Guru. Call him JOHN. I called John. Asked him about Koni's and Comfort and mentioned that I had talked to Scott Zimmerman at Source. He STOPPED ME.  Do NOT BUY OUR COMFORT SHOCKS. John had participated in the evaluation...and it was LONG and it was one of the BEST RUN and most professional Evaluation he had ever been involved in. He spent an hour on the phone...then after I checked on the Koni's called him back. He discussed and then HIT ME. He said that his son had a Monaco. His son bought the Source even though John could get them at a discount.  I bought the SOURCE...but opted for the HEAVY duty up front.  FOOTNOTE. John has retired. There is NO John and we have had members that can NOT get the right Comfort Part Number. John had a BOOK and Bilstein never UPDATED the charts...as JOHN was discouraged that they would spend the money on printing.
• OK...added the Source Sway Bars front and Rear. New Source Shocks. Did that in phases. Tested each. Each component improved ride and handling.  Dear Wife said take me for a ride. She said OMG. This now rides "HEAVIER"...like the Tour Busses we had spent days in. THEN we took a trip. She is an AVID reader.  BUT could not read on the road more than 30 minutes without a headache. Two days out....she finished her book. I said.  WOW, that was QUICK. She laughed then I commented. Did it EVER hit you that you got a headache after half an hour reading. DOUBLE OMG. This is great. I can READ.
• All the chatter after this was WATTS and David Pratt and Craig and Van would go on trips and discuss. David was a PRO Racer (he competed against some guy from Michigan named Rousch). He had designed racing mods and suspensions and knew the WATTS.  Rest is history. David actually installed a Watts on his 05 Exec with rear bars. It was an improvement...but not to the extent on the regular NON Monocoque body, but it REALLY improved the TruCenter. OK..That's it.  In 2018, I went to Van's place and installed the Hughes Kit. He "supervised....Chris got the deluxe install...I'm JEALOUS..  I was 5 minutes out on a rural road and called Van. He was waiting. I said OMH and he laughed.
• Drove the rig almost 9K that summer.  Through the I-40 pass from NC to TN.  On the flatlands. Over the Sierra Nevada's..SPOOKY...had a badly worn (factory defect) tire. Then up the coast to Seattle...then back across the upper mid west and over the SAME roads in ND that will buffet you with cross winds. Done that before. NIGHT and DAY better...had only the Blue Ox then.

Now the takeaways....being an Engineering Manager and doing product development as well as running Process improvement projects where you have to evaluate 

The WATTS (I had the TRW and Van barely tweaked the adjustment) was or IS the most improvement.

The Trucenter worked way better or it was "leveraged" by adding the Watts...so it was MORE effective. Dave confirmed this.

The Heavy Source shocks up front DID improve the stiffness...but NO SHOCK is going to compensate for the Watts

I LIKE, even with the stiffer Front Source, the ride. WOULD not run anything else...but mine are LIFETIME to the CAMELOT...guaranteed. Billstein and Koni...NOPE. I did have a leak. Shipped me a NEW shock.... NO CREDIT card to BUY it and then get a refunds..."after evaluation"  Bilstein and Koni do NOT, I've been TOLD always say OURS.  BTW...you have to ship in the Bilstein....and wait for their evaluation. I did than many years ago. Had the OLD shocks...so was NOT DEAD or ON BLOCKS...That is STILL the Bilstein warranty..  NUFF SAID?

The sway bars were a DEFINITE improvement

The Source Engineering shocks were DESIGNED specifically for a Monaco Chassis. When the MH Bilstein, with no offense to Chris, says DO NOT BUY and his son put them on...that says it all.  The Comfort are OK. The Koni's (Dave and a few others always put them on) were the GOLD STANDARD for Source.  They matched them and when tested, head to head, the Source scores better. The Source Warranty GOES WITH THE MH...a heck of an aid to sell...

That's my story...  SORRY for the LENGTH...But I spent days evaluating and talking to many folks. I made this a PhD Thesis project. I would SWAP anyone my Front Source Heavy Duty for the Regular ones.

NOW....the CAVEAT. The SOURCE is (or was) a LIFETIME WARRANTY...FOR THE MOTOR HOME.  Not the Original Purchaser. THAT may have changed.  Costco's LIFETIME Road Hazard warranty was dropped to 5 years. Check it out....don't take my word.

I HAVE NOT EVER received any $$ or Source Parts for writing anything here.  I recommend them based on my extensive research...

FOOTNOTE.  There is ONE DOWN SIDE. My Wife, after the WATTS, says I drive the MH like her Caddy ATS with the GM electronic shocks. She says that in a MH, that is really "exhillerating"...I KNOW that is what she meant... LOL. I have a C7 Vette and have been through the same driving school that David had been. I now PUSH the Camelot harder in curves and ramps than I will the 2014 Yukon behind it and it is "LIKE ON RAILS"

 

[Gospel]

I have a 2008 Monaco that wanders. I am tried of stay up with the steering wheel. There should be a centering pin with a lock nut on the steering sector. Am I out of touch?

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Gospel said:

I have a 2008 Monaco that wanders. I am tried of stay up with the steering wheel. There should be a centering pin with a lock nut on the steering sector. Am I out of touch?

 

DEPENDS.  If you have the TRW, there is an “adjustment” as in a stud and lock nut.  Never heard it called a “centering” pin. It limits the amount of travel or slack, internally.  As the sector is used and, perhaps has more internal wear, then there is more “side to side” movement in the wheel,  you adjust it, per TRW, to limit the free or “non productive” movement of the wheel.  It does not “center” the wheel….that is a steering or “tie rod” adjustment….which also can impact “toe in”.

On oickup trucks, before rack and pinion, there was the same adjustment.  If you cranked it in “too much” it then changed to “Lock to Lock” range…and you had a wider turning radius.  If no power or plain old manual steering, over adjusting would result in strengthening your shoulders and biceps and triceps….as that rascal was a PAIN to drive….two hands….

Suggest you find a good HD or OTR Front end shop.  Let them evaluate and then adjust…if necessary.  Many Monaco MH’s have “power steering on steroids” and that is very touchy….and you SEE SAW.  A steering damper works….but if there is a WATTS kit for your chassis….that is the first uograde.  If you have a Shepherd box or sector, then swapping to TRW is the next.

If you SEARCH using SHEPHERD or maybe SHEPHERD GEAR or SHEPHERD SECTOR….and click on everwhere….then Topics….there are pictures

You can also GOOGLE TRW Sector Pittman ARM.   Then Shepherd.  I THINK the TRW has a split clamp or collar.  The Shepherd has (memory) a bolt in the middle that screws into the internal gear.  Look at the pictures….easy to differentiate….

[Dwight Lindsey]

David:

My 2005 Knight has a Sheppard steering box.  It is well known to have some play in it.  Your Knight may also have a Sheppard. The Sheppard Steering Box is listed on my "Recreational Vehicle Data Card" that I got from Monaco.  If you have a Recreational Vehicle Data Card, look at it and see if you have a Sheppard.

My steering wheel had some play in it while going down the road, so I contacted Mike Hughes at Monaco Watts.  Instead of immediately selling me his product, he told me that the first and biggest improvement I needed to make was replacing the Sheppard with a TRW Steering Box.  As mentioned in the start of this thread, I have now done the steering box replacement with TRW, Front Monaco Watts, Rear Monaco Watts and Rear Cross Bars.  They all made improvements.

Check out your steering box first.

Dwight

[Benjamin]

2 hours ago, Gospel said:

I have a 2008 Monaco that wanders. I am tried of stay up with the steering wheel. There should be a centering pin with a lock nut on the steering sector. Am I out of touch?

 

Yes, IF you have a TRW box, then there's an adjustment screw with a lock nut.  Before adjusting, you want to at least lift the wheels off the ground, I think they usually want the linkage removed so the box preload can be measured.  The gear has to be centered to the wheels, because the box is designed to be tight only in the center of the range, so you can go STRAIGHT down the road, and it won't matter if there's a little slop while you're turning.  If the "alignment" is not centered, then even though the box it adjusted tight, if the box is not centered while you're going straight, it wont be as tight as it can be.  Likewise, if you adjust the box when off center, it will be tight in the center.  This is the short version, don't attempt it without the written directions.

If you have a Sheppard box, they're not adjustable, but a heavier duty design, some are tight, some are not. 

[Bykerboy]

I’ve done the Front Monaco Watts, the rear cross brace and the TRW steering box upgrade.   They all made incremental improvements and I am much happier with the way my 2006 Monaco Knight now steers and tracks. 

[Gospel]

Dwight & all

I'll check mine out to see what box it has. I was a bus mechanic in my earlier years so all on the post make sense. Who & where is this watts person.

[Bykerboy]

https://monacowatts.com/

[RVerBob]

I could not stay out of rumble strips, left front steer hit so hard on road divots I would crunch my teeth to prepare for hit.

Whent to youtube and found steer lash adjust on the TRW steer box, followed adjust and now have the smoothest ride I've ever had.

Front left and right steers hit road divots smoothly and no rumble strips

[J Goddard]

Last winter, my travels took me through Grants Pass, Oregon. So I took the opportunity of having a Road Performance Assessment completed on my '05 Diplomat by Henderson' Line-Up. My main complaint was what I learned is called the WalMart sway. That is when the coach leans to one side and then rocks back to the other when slowly maneuvering through a parking lot. Expansion joints in the road were also more jarring than I felt they should be. 

Before I arrived I reported that the coach already had new Koni shocks, Safe-T-Plus steering stabilizer and new tires. Each of these items had individually and incrementally contributed their part to overall better handling.

Following the RPA, their recommendations included the Monaco Watt's Linkage (front, rear, and crossbar), TRW steering box and Motion Control Units (MCU). I should note that I have seen many posts in this forum related to the Watt' solutions and the TRW steer box however not the MCUs. 

I had the MCUs installed and the difference is pretty remarkable. In the future, I will likely have the full Watt's treatment installed. But the MCUs provided the best bang for the buck addressing my sway and expansion joint issue. 

[Pudgy Camper]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:41 AM, Dwight Lindsey said:

A few years ago, I had the Sheppard steering box replaced with a TRW and  bought the Monaco Watts front Watts Link.  Mike Huges, owner of Monaco Watts, did the install.

Handling was improved, but I still had some apparent play in the steering.

Redlands installed the Watts Link, Rear Cross Bars and Source Engineering Bilstein shocks, and greased the chassis including the Monaco Watts equipment (Front Watts, Rear Watts, Cross Bars).  They did all that in one day.  It was expensive, but very well done.

On the way back I noticed that the coach handled better.  Almost no apparent play in the steering.  I don't know which component to credit, but I imagine the rear cross bars helped a lot.

Dwight

Dwight you mention that after your TRW install you still had some play in the steering. Then after the Watts, crossbars and shocks there was a big improvement. Did they adjust your TRW box during this work? Unless I'm missing something I don't see how Watts, crossbars etc. can take the play out of the steering. From what I understand those components help out with the geometry of the chassis, but don't do anything for the TRW box to steering wheel connection.

The reason I ask is because I just had my TRW box rebuilt because I couldn't get the play adjusted out of it and was told by Weller that it was worn out (after only 49k miles!). There is some improvement with the new rebuilt box, but still has a little play. I feel definite movement in my steering wheel before the pitman arm starts to move. It's not much, but enough to be annoying. My steering wheel probably turns about 3/4-1" freely. I've been through the steering shaft u-joints, greased them, inspected and everything is tight there. The play is in the box, I can turn the input shaft with my hand and see the play before the pitman arm starts to rotate. After talking with TRW, they say that even new boxes need to be adjusted sometimes! So I guess that is what I will try next.🤬

I also added the rear crossbars and feel like those have helped some with crosswinds and passing semis. I plan to add the front and rear Watts eventually but want to get the TRW dialed in first.

 

Edited September 23 by Pudgy Camper

[Dwight Lindsey]

Jason:

They did not adjust the TRW, I didn't think to ask them about that.  After the rear Watts Link and cross bars, the coach is much steadier going down the road.  There's not a lot of need to adjust the steering wheel.  I've only had a couple of hours of driving after the install and it was VERY windy during the drive back from Redlands.  So I have not had a perfect test drive, but it's clearly better.  The next time I'm near a truck service I'll have them check the TRW.

 

[Tom Cherry]

MY EXPERIENCE 

• Had front end aligned. Josams advised rear axle was warped. A common Monaco welding issue. Right pull.  Josams swapped front tires….side to side. Fixed. 2010
• Early 2011, added Blue Ox TruCenter. WORLD of difference. Still noticed a big “oversteer” in ND 25 MPH crosswind. Center or steering wheel was 4” to RIGHT..to keep rig straight on Interstate.  Much better than before
• Mid 2012.  Added Source Engineering front and rear Sway Bars (manufactured by Roadmaster). Replaced the worn out cheap Monroe OEM shocks.  Regular Source Bilsteins on rear. Heavier or larger ones on front.  Replaced GY with new Bridgestone shocks. GY just SPOOKED ME was running almost 125 PSI due to rivering. DW SAID IT WAS A DREAM. She could not read for more than 30 minutes riding.  First two days…..4 - 6 hours…I called that to her attention.  She was flabbergasted.  Subjective but proves the point. Driver fatigue greatly reduced.
• 2018….finally succumbed to “Group Peer Pressure”. Installed front Watts.  A member THEN adjusted the TRW. Maybe 50K. The adjustment was so minimal, he could not believe and he has done at least 25…so he ain’t no johnny come lately.  He had built several Watts links and installed.  I barely got out of his driveway and called.  He laughed.  He said typical reaction.  
• later in 2018….drove almost 9K to west coast and back, via Seattle and upoer mid west and Elkhart.  ND winds were tamed.
• I opted NOT to do cross braces or Watts in rear.
• DO THE WATTS FIRST. SWAP the steering sector if Shepherd. Install the brand of stabilizer that Henderson’s sells WITH THE TRIM CENTERING KIT.

DW loves ride.  I love handling. Driver fatigue is minimal. Sometimes she “grabs” an imaginary assist bar as I take an exit or mountain curve.  It AIN’T my C7 Vette or her electronic shocks Caddy ATS. BUT, I drive it faster and more aggressively that the 2014 Yukon that I usually tow. The Camelot does NOT know it is back there.

I have to tell myself to SLOW DOWN. It is that smooth and tracks that well.