Another Newbie here, "new" 2007 Signature Owner

[RLM777]

Sorry for the dumb question.  We have two battery bays, one empty and the smaller one has two trays.  Which is the House, top or bottom?

We are looking at replacing both House and Chassie batteries with new.  I would like to stay with non-Lithium to avoid the headache of Lithium.  What type would you recommend?

Thanks.

[Old Dog]

On my rig the bottom tray is house w/ 4 6v golf cart batteries. I just use high quality lead acid and service them every 6 months. Going on 7 years and all the cells still test good.

[Steve P]

AGM are less worry... mine are going on 5 years from Battery Source (metro Atlanta supplier).

[donbouv22]

There are no dumb questions! Your house batteries should be in the right rear, or so, bay. Chassis batteries in the back. I’ve got 6 each 6 volt AGM batteries on my Navigator for house batteries. No maintenance, but fairly expensive, $2,200 for the 6. But I’m good for 10 years. So, house are on top & on bottom. I can fit 2 more, but I’m pretty confident in the 6. 

[Tom Cherry]

As one poster put it....there are NO DUMB QUESTIONS.

However, most members will also say to start reading the manual from cover to cover.  In your case, read sections 8 & 9.  The Manual is good. It does NOT show a picture of the bays, as some manuals do. BUT...

Here is the print of your HIGH CURRENT System.

MEMORY.  Your Signature came with an OPTION second SET of House Batteries.  ODDS are...the OPEN Tray..is just that

NOW...so you can learn.

There are TWO batteries in the CHASSIS BANK. They are easy to identify. They do NOT have CAPS.  The are in the center of the PRINT.  They will have TWO Jumpers or Cables connecting the POSTS.  They are the SHORE Black (or maybe Red and Black).  They run from the POSITIVE to the POSITIVE on one side.  Same for the Negative. This puts them in PARALLEL.  SO, the TOTAL Voltage from the TWO PARALLEL batteries is 12 VDC.

The HOUSE...Look at the PRINT.  There are FOUR Batteries.  They will have CAPS if they are FLOODED CELLS.  AGM will NOT.  Notice that the JUMPERS go from POSITIVE to the NEGATIVE in each ROW.  That ADDS the Voltage.  So you have TWO Horizontal (on the PRINT) 6 VDC batteries.  The Voltage across that set is 12 VDC.

BUT, you have TWO Rows of BATTERIES.  So each ROW is connected with the SAME Jumpers as the Chassis.  That means you have TWO 6VDC in SERIES (12 VDC) and TWO Sets of TWO ROWS in Parallel....so the total voltage is still 12 VDC.

I am including two of your FILES.  Read up on THEM...

One explains Batteries.

NOW, READ UP ON THEM.  There are TWO Schools of THOUGHT on Batteries.

First...the AGM's DO NOT require any "Maintneance" as in checking the Electrolyte and adding Distilled Water.  The Flooded cell type DO. 

BUT, the COMMON MISCONCEPTION.  BUY THEM AGM's and NEVER MESS WITH THEM. 

That is TOTALLY WRONG.  BOTH Flooded and AGM's have to BE EXERCISED or used.  There are instruction for Discharging (Running them DOWN to around 12 VDC. That needs to be done at least once or twice every YEAR.  THEN you have to do it THREE times.  Then they are "Rejuvenated" and back at FULL Strength. 

All the HYPE and FLUFF about AGM's NEVER mentions this.  I talked to Trojan a while back. The techs said that MOST folks get a SHORTER life out of the AGM's as they NEVER TOUCH THEM.  BUT, the members that run Flooded Cells will check the electrolyte and exercise them. We find MORE people complain about SHORTER life of AGM's  The OTHER FACTOR.  When folks put in AGM's and do not read or reset the Parameters in their Inverter (and you have a Magnum), then they leave them set for Flooded Cell Charging.  This shortens the LIFE of the AGM. You MUST setup the Magnum Inverter (through the REMOTE) and specify WHICH type of AGM that you have (on the newer remotes...yours may only have ONE type of AGM).

So... If you want MAX LIFE from either BATTERY...you will have to spend a few hours every year or 6 months and EXERCISE and CARE and TEND to your Batteries.  OTHERWISE...Shorter LIFE.  NOW, if you spend MORE for AGM's then it COSTS YOUR MORE....as they are MORE expensive and you get a shorter life.

We have many experienced members with scientific and electronic and electrical skills and THEY run Trojan T-105.  Why.  LESS CHANCE OF MESSING UP when they are charging. If something goes WRONG and it happens MORE Frequently...that is why at least 25% of the OMG...What do do NOW posts are about...CHARGING ISSUES and DEAD batteries.

Another staff member (Moderator) and myself CHOOSE NOT to run AGM's and we get upwards of 7 years...he is actually, I think...pushing 10 Years... BUT we keep the electrolyte filled and we exercise the batteries.  NOW, if you boondock a few times a year and run the batteries down to almost "50%) for at least three times...then that COUNTS as Exercising.

So...you get a BOGO...  Battery-101 and Magnum Set up.  These two files are the most downloaded and were written to help NEWBIES...as well as those NOT SO NEW, BUT, didn't understand Batteries or how to Run or use their Inverter. From experience in helping members setup and troubleshoot their DEAD batteries, I can say that if I BOUGHT a used or NEW motorhome, the FIRST THING I would do...is to GO THROUGH the MAGNUM SETUP.  Unfortunately many MH owners don't realize or depend on the "FACTORY" to set them up or they get curious and "TWEAK" without any knowledge or little knowledge  SO...go through the SETUP and make sure your Magnum is setup properly. That is the KEY to good charging and LONG LIFE...regardless of type of Battery.

Welcome aboard....

 

2007 High Current Low Voltage RRB 38070173.pdf

[Paul J A]

Chassis battery's are Group 31--12v. Those should be 950-1200 CCA, Cold Cranking Amp EACH.  House battery's are GC2 6v. Golf Cart 2 AGM are the best for performance and only require exercising . Buy the heaviest that will fit in the battery tray, which is the forward one on curb side, AKA the Patio side.

You can get your coach Manuals and Sales brochure here; monacocoach.com 

[vito.a]

Your house will use 6 volt golf car batteries (GC2) paired to make 12 volts.  If your coach came with a residential refrigerator option it will have eight GC2 house batteries.  If not it may have four or six.  

Your chassis batteries (used for engine start) are two Group 31.  You want the highest capacity group 31 size batteries you can find.  NAPA used to have an 1200CCA Group 31.  

Lifeline is considered the best AGM battery, but they are pricey.  https://lifelinebatteries.com/blog/the-best-batteries-for-rv-adventurers-lifeline-agm-rv-batteries/

Trojan is also considered to be a very good battery and is less expensive than Lifeline.  Trojan GC2 6 volt golf car batteries have lasted up to 10 years with proper care.  But, they will require regular cleaning and water fills.  https://www.trojanbattery.com/applications/recreational-vehicle-batteries

Some folks use golf car batteries (GC2 size) from Sam's or Costco.  When on sale, these can be a good value.  

Your Signature came with a large commercial 270 amp alternator.  Switching to lithium iron phosphate (LIFEPO4) batteries is less of a hassle.  You can almost bolt them in and forget about them.  Ideally, you should adjust the charging profile on your Magnum inverter charger.  but you should do this for any battery you install.  

The big advantage to lithium is you only need half the battery power and they last longer.  But they are expensive (but the price is coming down) and they have limits on both high and low temperature.  If you had a light duty automobile alternator you would need to isolate them with a DC to DC charger.  

If you decide to research lithium batteries watch some of the Will Prowse videos on YouTube.  He is both entertaining and informative.  

Good luck!

I should add that I'm currently using 6 volt Trojan GC2 golf car batteries for the house.  I found them at a local golf car store for $129 each.  But they have gone way up in the last two years.  

Next time around I'm going to switch to lithium batteries.  The only challenge is to find a size that fits the trays and doesn't cost a fortune.  

Edited August 2 by vito.a

[Tom Cherry]

6 hours ago, vito.a said:

Your house will use 6 volt golf car batteries (GC2) paired to make 12 volts.  If your coach came with a residential refrigerator option it will have eight GC2 house batteries.  If not it may have four or six.  

Your chassis batteries (used for engine start) are two Group 31.  You want the highest capacity group 31 size batteries you can find.  NAPA used to have an 1200CCA Group 31.  

Lifeline is considered the best AGM battery, but they are pricey.  https://lifelinebatteries.com/blog/the-best-batteries-for-rv-adventurers-lifeline-agm-rv-batteries/

Trojan is also considered to be a very good battery and is less expensive than Lifeline.  Trojan GC2 6 volt golf car batteries have lasted up to 10 years with proper care.  But, they will require regular cleaning and water fills.  https://www.trojanbattery.com/applications/recreational-vehicle-batteries

Some folks use golf car batteries (GC2 size) from Sam's or Costco.  When on sale, these can be a good value.  

Your Signature came with a large commercial 270 amp alternator.  Switching to lithium iron phosphate (LIFEPO4) batteries is less of a hassle.  You can almost bolt them in and forget about them.  Ideally, you should adjust the charging profile on your Magnum inverter charger.  but you should do this for any battery you install.  

The big advantage to lithium is you only need half the battery power and they last longer.  But they are expensive (but the price is coming down) and they have limits on both high and low temperature.  If you had a light duty automobile alternator you would need to isolate them with a DC to DC charger.  

If you decide to research lithium batteries watch some of the Will Prowse videos on YouTube.  He is both entertaining and informative.  

Good luck!

I should add that I'm currently using 6 volt Trojan GC2 golf car batteries for the house.  I found them at a local golf car store for $129 each.  But they have gone way up in the last two years.  

Next time around I'm going to switch to lithium batteries.  The only challenge is to find a size that fits the trays and doesn't cost a fortune.  

Technically, if you look at the SIG BATTERY SPECS...  The originals, I think, were 950 CCA.  CURIOUSITY....so pulled the prints.  YES... Here is what you need.  Depends on if you want AGM's.  The Local Interstate Distributor quit using AGM's in all their service and delivery trucks.  Didn't last.  PER their senior Battery Tech. I have also read and heard the same for Vettes or cars that are NOT driven that much...that an AGM was not any better than a Wet Cell.  I run the Interstates (950 CCA) and get upwards of 6 years. BTW... We have a SCANNED copy of the prints in the SIG's Owner's Manual.  Look at the prints.  LOTS of answers to questions there.  SO, again.  time to read the manual. There is an entire section on battery maintenance...and nowhere does it say.  AGM's NEVER TOUCH... 

I agree that the Trojan T-105's are the BEST...as I stated.

BUT, @vito.a

I did have to chuckle...  The main challenge, that there are so many topics or threads here....How do you totally reconfigure your electrical system to accommodate the Lithiums...especially on Inverter chargers that are "Buggy Whip" era and one BOBBLE and then the Lithiums are ready for recycling.

I suspect you are keeping up, but that simplistic comment, could NOT go unnoticed...  Look forward, seriously, as to how you do and what the costs are.

As for me...  8 or more years...trying to catch the other staff member, with the 10 years..  That is my goal and the cost per year is so cheap, it ain't funny.

Hope this helps...

Battery SPECS - 2007 Signature.pdf

[RLM777]

Thank you for all the replies.  I think I will be sticking with 6-volt golfcart batteries for this go-around.  As much as I would like to go with LIFEPO4, I can't justify the expense of the full setup.

[Venturer]

My 2006 Executive also has two battery trays. I opted for eight Super Start Deep Cycle batteries from O'Reilly's. My coach already had 4 new ones so it made sense to get four more. They total over 900 amps and seems to work well for our all-electric coach. I added a watering system so once a month it takes less than 5 minutes to top off all the cells. The engine has two 950 amp Duracell's in the engine compartment. On a previous coach, I had six 300 amp Lifeline house batteries that were still going strong after six years. All I did with them was to blow the dust off once a year. Any type of battery will work. The budget tells you which one is right for you. 

[Malewis11]

I’m about to change the chassis batteries in my 06 Windsor. I’m taking pics, making labels, disconnecting from shore power and flipping disconnects. It’s inside so the so the solar shouldn’t be active. Are there any other precautions or procedures that I need to be aware of? I’ve read some threads about the inverter or electronics being damaged in certain instances.

[Venturer]

All I did was unplug from shore power and turn the house disconnect off. I hooked up the chassis negative last and turned the disconnect back on. All was well.

[Tom Cherry]

28 minutes ago, Venturer said:

All I did was unplug from shore power and turn the house disconnect off. I hooked up the chassis negative last and turned the disconnect back on. All was well.

NOTE….be aware…..  FIRST…some newer Magnums are NOT wired or connected through the Disconnect switches. I BELIEVE that the 2005 Dynasty have a 400 or maybe a 350 AMP….inline fuse. My Camelot has a 300A inline fuse.

SECOND…even it the Inverter is controlled by the disconnect switch….you may (will? probably) see a spark.  The House has the propane and CO detector on the BATTERY at all times.  The Chassis has the ECM and TCM on the HOT POST Positive side.  NOW…a FEW models have a “Detector” rocker switch on a circuit board…so for LONG TERM Storage…..you can defeat the alarms.

YOU MUST TURN OFF THE INVERTER on the “unit”.  Some have a push button power switch (Magnum) and the Xantrex, I THINK, has an ON/OFF snap switch.

MY ADVICE….read how to do the SOFT RESET on the Magnum.  That powers it down….then do NOT TOUCH the power button.  Put in the batteries….then push the power button.  Any issues….do the soft reset snd that will clear it.

[Malewis11]

All good points. Thanks for the input. I’m about to tackle it and clean up the area but one more question. Is there any worry about removing the power from the ECM? 

[amphi_sc]

I'm late to this party.  Noting that the original poster (RLM777) has an '07 45' Signature it may be very close to my '07 45' Patriot Thunder.  I also have 2 battery bays with three trays in total.  The factory setup and wiring diagram options show rear tray and the upper tray in the next bay were for four Lifeline gpl-4gl house batteries... 2 on each tray.  The lower tray had four Lifeline gpl-1400t starting batteries.  (And those original batteries were in it when I purchased our used coach many moons ago....but since then replaced them all once keeping with the Lifelines.  BTW, Centex Batteries is about an hour away from my Texas home and has a great price on their Aledo Tx warehouse pickup of Lifeline batteries ... no shipping costs or associated hassles.)

My wiring diagrams show an optional setup for an all electric coach using four of the larger Lifeline gpl-8dl batteries for the house instead, but I have the propane stove so the factory used the 4dls on mine.

Lithium may be great for some but I'd have a lot of electrical stuff to replace to switch so I may well stay with the Lifelines when I probably will have to replace them again in a couple more years.  If my original Magnum inverter goes TU in the mean time I could rethink all the options.

Weren't the '07 Sig and '07 PT both from the West coast plant?  I know I have a lot of other things in common with a Sig.

[Ivylog]

My total expense going to Lithium (besides the batteries) is less than $200. With Lithium batteries now in the $2/AH range, I question why you wouldn’t go Lithium.

The AGM2 setting in our inverter/chargers does an adequate job of charging Lithiums… does a good job if on shore power for extended periods. I’d already spent the $200 is for an additional 100A charger (power it off the block heater outlet) to reduce my generator runtime.

I’m not the only person who hasn’t added a DC-DC current limiter to protect the alternator… mine doesn’t overheat with 700+ AH of Lithiums .

[Tom Cherry]

21 hours ago, Malewis11 said:

All good points. Thanks for the input. I’m about to tackle it and clean up the area but one more question. Is there any worry about removing the power from the ECM? 

OK..this is how it will work.  
 

Chassis.  Turn off Disconnect.  Remove the Jumpers….they will be, assuming you have TWO batteries in parallel, POS - POS & NEG - NEG.  Pull the NEG first. PROBABLY have only one MAIN NEG….it varies. If one battery has NO Main NEG cable….but a Jumper to the other…. PULL that first on the battery with NO Main cable.  Then do the NEG on the other one.  If you are pulling and cleaning or surface prepping the trays.  Rustoleum primer and Bed Liner top coats (3…LOL) are the most commonly used.  POR-15 is the gold standard. I have 11 years on my Rustileum….

As to the ECM and TCM.  When you put BACK on the NEG….first OFF and last ON, you will get a small spark. Normal.  Folks do not usually chase down and disconnect individually.  The ECM has a memory…. The TCM will “reset” to factory.  That means all the “learned” habits are gone.  In REALITY, members have paid Allison to “fix the sluggish shifts”…to do just that….power down and wait 5 minutes….then drive.  The Allison always “learns”.  So if someone had taught it to be “Gramma going to church….at age 95”….then resetting and letting it start from scratch is good. Allison recommends that, after warmup, at least every month or so…from a stoplight or such…do a DRAG RACER stomp. We have had members that babied them so much….and not even liking the “cruise resume”, that they were a PITA and annoying to drive.  The above was “a confession” from a member at a Gathering and the Allison rep chuckled.

NOW.  Along those lines.  It is RECOMMENDED that you have a tech, with the Cummins Insight software and TRAINED….download the complete setup and history of the ECM, this is like a time capsule. @Frank McElroy did mine and chided me for hitting 81 MPH down a grade before I put on the exhaust brake and killed the cruise. He has posted what to ask for and what is in the History file. If you have that…then a new or refurbished ECM can be easily installed….  

The Allison TCM supposedly has codes or such written down in programming it.  An Allison dealer can download the setup and shift points…. Typically half to an hour’s shop labor will be charged. If you find a facility that is certified in both…cheaper.

Same deal for House.  Odds are…you inverter is on the House switch.  The later Magnums were fused directly…and turning OFF the disconnect didn’t kill them.  You WILL get a spark from the propane and CO detector…unless you have the rare bird “alarm defeat” switch on a board.

That’s it.

[Tom Cherry]

29 minutes ago, Ivylog said:

My total expense going to Lithium (besides the batteries) is less than $200. With Lithium batteries now in the $2/AH range, I question why you wouldn’t go Lithium.

The AGM2 setting in our inverter/chargers does an adequate job of charging Lithiums… does a good job if on shore power for extended periods. I’d already spent the $200 is for an additional 100A charger (power it off the block heater outlet) to reduce my generator runtime.

I’m not the only person who hasn’t added a DC-DC current limiter to protect the alternator… mine doesn’t overheat with 700+ AH of Lithiums .

MY ONLY Caveat.  HISTORY. Yes, there is supposedly a custom setting, if you buy a new remote, for your 08 Magnum. YES…it probably will work.

BUT…based on being involved with about every Magnum post here since the new site came up, in the past 18 months of so, we have had TWICE (my own memory and ability to catalog such) the failures of Magnums….than in the prior period.  There is an assignable and logical and known cause.  The FET’s are bedded in a Thermal Conductive Heat Sink compound when installed.  Based on the age and also the KNOWN life span or deterioration of the compounds….it is deteriorating at a faster rate.  It is NOW crystalizing.  The ability to continue to do a 100% thermal or heat transfer is compromised.  That is leading to failures.  Ain’t NO fixing it, unless you psosses the knowledge and skills and can use a Hot Air soldering/desoldering tool.  You can’t, I’ve been told, go in and use a precision low wattage soldering station iron and remove them…and replace the compound.  NOW we do have 2 that could do this….

BUT…for all practical purposes….the useful life of your Magnum is looming.  SO….is it worth the risk of a failure which will destroy the Li Batteries…just to say…I DID IT?

NOW…even MORE of an issue…and first hand experience…as well as helping at least 10 others.  The remotes fail quicker than the Inverters. They LOSE your setup.  They MODIFY the setup.  BEEN THERE.  Ran tests for Magnum for at least a month…as they were interested and wanted feedback.  The AMP Hours would change.  The charging rate would change.  Sometimes you couldn’t even program…and had to disconnect the remote…do a soft reset….all the defaults worked….the built in…but that is for a 450 AH FLA and 90% Charge and such.  Then, you could use the remote….checked the program a few days later…after a few SHORE to Inverting cycles.  BINGO…remote went batty.

At rhe very LEAST, replace the REMOTE….moe custom setup options.  All covered in the Magnum HOW TO file.

Personally, I doubt I need Lithiums.  I get 8 or so years from my Trojans.  That is less than $100 per year.  Look at the potential life cycle of the Lithiums and do the math.  That is something that I have not done.  It may be cost effective….but if you add in the new Victron or whatever and other stuff?.? Maybe a 50 year payback….seriously what are the effective life spans of Lithiums with OPTIMUM and proper installs?

I make decisions based on cost and payback…and $100 per year for FLA (Trojan of course) is hard to beat..  AGM will fail quicker.  WHY ….believing the NO MAINTENANCE hype.  Trojan says THEY have to be exercisedjust as often as FLA and the charging profile is more critical….therefore, most don’t get the life expectancy…. 
 

One needs to know the facts and also the costs as well as accept that a 20 YO charger is gonna fail…soon….

[Malewis11]

@Tom Cherry the work was preformed as you described. There was definitely a spark but I took precautions to make sure nothing shorted. Started and drove the Coach to exercise her and all seems well. Resetting the TCM may be a good thing. I haven’t been happy with the downshifting so hopefully I’ll see some improvement. Thanks for the information.

[Ivylog]

“accept that a 20 YO charger is gonna fail…soon”

My 3012 put as many amps into my AGMs as my Lithiums…so what’s the difference? Not going back to LA batteries to “save” my inverter/charger. For what a RC-50L costs you can buy an additional 100A charger which will reduce your generator run time when dry camping and can be set to 14.6V for Lithiums. The BMS in Lithium’s will stop the charging if you forget to turn it off.