Xantrex inverter equalizing on it's own

[jacwjames]

2002 Windsor

Xantrex/Trace 2012RV inverter with RG7AGS

I was in the coach about a week ago, all was good.

Wife went in this morning and the inverter display was clicking and flashing lights, she hollered at me to come check.  The inverter display was flashing equalizing.  I could not get it to stop.  Tried shutting off the inverter with the switch on the inverter and nothing happened.  Tried disconnecting the communication cable, still nothing.  Finally turned off both disconnects and the shore power and finally everything went dead. 

House battery voltage was 14.7 so yup it was equalizing.  Chassis battery was 13.27 so the Bluesea must have disconnected.   

House battery electrolite level is low, below the top of the plates.  I had some distilled water, enough to put ~24 oz in one battery which brought the level up above the plates.  I'll get some more distilled water before I proceed to see if the batteries are completely crap or have some life in them, they are +3 years old.  

Wife got back from her trip in early July and coach has been in garage plugged in.  I had kept up with electrolite level, checked them about a month ago, all good.  I have water miser caps on them so have had to add minimal amounts of distilled water to top them off. 

 

So what happened, what caused the inverter to go into the equalization mode??  I had gone through the process in the past but hadn't done it in a while?  

Once I get distilled water and top off the batteries I'll turn the power back on and see what the inverter does. 

Any suggestions on a path forward??? 

[96 EVO]

Original inverter?

[jacwjames]

Yes, original inverter, never had a problem with it.  After my wife got back from her trip I checked all the batteries and turned the inverter off.  Over the last couple months I've check battery status via the Victron VMB712 shunt. 

So it took about 2.5 gallons to get all the electrolite levels up.  Battery now tests 13.5 volts.  Each battery by itself is ~6.78 volts, none seem to be shorted/fried. 

I'll leave it rest over night and then try putting the power on the coach and see what the display does.  

Edited September 2 by jacwjames

[jacwjames]

Well, went out this morning and check the batteries, voltage is showing 13.3 volts after resting for ~20 hours.  Seems high!!

Turned on the shore power and the inverter started to charge. 

Checked the display and it is showing absorption charge ~14.7 volts

But the display is clicking non stop and about every 5 seconds there is a chime ringing from it.  None of the buttons do anything on the display.  I unplugged the remote display cable at the inverter and plugged back in, no change.

Any suggestions? 

[jacwjames]

So I went back out to check on the inverter & display.  It is still showing the absorption charge but it's charging at 15 volts, batteries are starting to boil.  The display will not let me do anything, none of the buttons are responsive to try and check settings.  The clicking sound has reduced/stopped, it will start clicking if I press the buttons.   So I turned off the power to the coach turned off the house battery disconnect. 

I have a call into Inverter Sales and Service in TN, waiting on a call back.

 

As of right now I'm guessing the inverter is bad and maybe the display but hard to tell.    Any comments or words of wisdom.  Anyone seen anything like this before. 

[Tom Cherry]

11 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

So I went back out to check on the inverter & display.  It is still showing the absorption charge but it's charging at 15 volts, batteries are starting to boil.  The display will not let me do anything, none of the buttons are responsive to try and check settings.  The clicking sound has reduced/stopped, it will start clicking if I press the buttons.   So I turned off the power to the coach turned off the house battery disconnect. 

I have a call into Inverter Sales and Service in TN, waiting on a call back.

 

As of right now I'm guessing the inverter is bad and maybe the display but hard to tell.    Any comments or words of wisdom.  Anyone seen anything like this before. 

NOT a Xantrex expert.  BUT the only things that have been done to "Salvage" or GEE....TRY THIS.  TURN off BOTH Disconnects.  Turn OFF solar or cover or pull the fuse.  NO AC nor Genny.  Pull the Negative and Positive from the Inverter.  Pull the JUMPERS (ones between each battery).  THEN let it sit.  How long?  I'd go for at least an hour.

THEN....I THINK the best startup would be.  Connect the Inverter back up.  My GUT says that your Inverter is powered through the House disconnect...not like the newer ones where the Inverter is on a FUSE...directly connected. 

Then reconnect the Jumpers on the House.  THEN turn back on the Disconnects.....saying a prayer or whatever one wishes when one needs a FAVORABLE OUTCOME to a seemingly untenable situation.

THEN observe.  If the Inverter goes SOUTH....  ODDS ARE..  It needs new hardware.  NOW....from what we are seeing in Magnums....  that MAY be the overheating of the FET's due to the lack of heat dissipation.  YOU COULD test this...  FIRST...  Put a floor fan near the inverter....blowing on it.  THEN do your startup.

It MIGHT take it a while....to heat up.  BUT, if it happens immediately... BOARD is bad.  From MY PERSPECTIVE and you have a Maintenance background.  The cost of a new board is going to be prohibitive....as you also need, whilst in there, to change out the fans and the heat sensors (if they are external and NOT on the board).  That is why I will not replace, doing it myself, the main control board.  YES....this is a Magnum.  BUT, Inverters are all the same....basically.  If the PCB is bad....or the REMOTE....as in the REMOTE is bad....it is TOAST.

NOW....ONE MORE TRICK...and this works on a Magnum.  There is an INTERNAL set of Default settings.  When you power it down.....unplug the remote.....SHOULD have said that first as well.  THEN do the power back UP.  See if it is charging....by measuring the HOUSE.  If it is now charging where it should be....then leave it alone.  It should EVENTUALLY get back to the Float level.  I do not KNOW how high the voltage goes when it is in BULK...but 15 is way too high...  If it is in the low 14's and the REMOTE is still unplugged....then be suspicious of the REMOTE.  BUT, in you have the RC-7 (memory) remote....there is NOT a new one out there.

SO...  If you plug in the remote and it jumps up to the equalizing voltage....that is a BAD remote.

Hope this helps...

[Ivan K]

When my RC7 remote started randomly beeping and flashing, I ended up replacing it because no resets would make a difference. Since then I acquired a spare from a member who upgraded his inverter. Seems the only way to get hands on one. We are in Mississippi near Memphis now but will move towards Nashville and then east sometime after that (wife gives me pointers at the last minute), no idea when and where we stay but if we get close enough and you still need one for a test, I would get in touch.

[jacwjames]

@Tom Cherry

I left power off the coach all day yesterday, didn't disconnect batteries but turned off both disconnects. 

@Ivan K

I keep the offer in mind but I'll pull the trigger on another inverter in the next week if I can't get it working.  I have a trip planned in Oct so there is a time factor to consider.

 

I called the Xantrex service and repair shop, no one was there to answer questions and no one called me back.  I'll try again tomorrow.

[Tom Cherry]

5 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

@Tom Cherry

I left power off the coach all day yesterday, didn't disconnect batteries but turned off both disconnects. 

@Ivan K

I keep the offer in mind but I'll pull the trigger on another inverter in the next week if I can't get it working.  I have a trip planned in Oct so there is a time factor to consider.

 

I called the Xantrex service and repair shop, no one was there to answer questions and no one called me back.  I'll try again tomorrow.

Them STRAY ghostly electrons will still be there.  Do it again.  After you disconnect all power….turn the switch (I THINK you Xantrex has an ON/OFF or click switch).  Leave it on.  On a Magnum, you can hold in the spring loaded power button…..that dissipates all the stored charges.

I’m NOT that confident.  BUT…..this is the last known way to do a complete, stored charge free restart…..you are fast approaching the HEY…it IS BROKEN state. I do NOT ever remember seeing in writing or posted a “CONFIDENTIAL HARD RESET” on a Xantrex.   Folks have done this…

I’m still of the opinion that if you restart without a remote…the charging voltage may be correct….so, then….the issue.  Is a faulty remote the issue.  Happening more and more.  You are over 22, maybe 23 years on an electronic device with a “known” useful life of 20 max…probably closer to 17….

It HAPPENS….and you are joining a larger “band of brothers”….Xantrex as well as Magnum.

FWIW….that’s how I see it….and the trends…and I get involved in most every Inverter post here….and the landscape is definitely changing.

[jacwjames]

OK, I'll go through the reset steps again

But not feeling confident it will work. 

[jacwjames]

@Tom Cherry

So disconnected the batteries and shore power about 3 hours ago and let the system sit as per Tom's suggestion.

Also got a call back from Inverter Sales and Service and talked to a tech.  He agreed on trying to do a reset.  If it doesn't work he said a board in the inverter is probably bad and only a ~25% chance it would be fixable.  He also recommended a Magnum inverter and control board if I had to replace.  Cost from them would be ~$2K. 

 

But I just hooked the batteries back up and then checked the RC7 display and it was acting normal and showed the current voltage.  I then turned on the shore power and held my breath.  The inverter was still acting normal and said it was float charging.  So I will keep an eye on it today and see if it still behaves.  I have a Victoron BVM712 that I can used to check the voltages, one thing I hadn't done in the past was program it for alarm on overvoltage, I'll do that today. 

Fingers crossed!!

[96 EVO]

I'm still scratching my head wondering why your battery bank would read 13.3v after being off charger for 20hrs!

[Tom Cherry]

He said….the inverter was “faulty” as in being overcharged.

18 hours ago, jacwjames said:

@Tom Cherry

So disconnected the batteries and shore power about 3 hours ago and let the system sit as per Tom's suggestion.

Also got a call back from Inverter Sales and Service and talked to a tech.  He agreed on trying to do a reset.  If it doesn't work he said a board in the inverter is probably bad and only a ~25% chance it would be fixable.  He also recommended a Magnum inverter and control board if I had to replace.  Cost from them would be ~$2K. 

 

But I just hooked the batteries back up and then checked the RC7 display and it was acting normal and showed the current voltage.  I then turned on the shore power and held my breath.  The inverter was still acting normal and said it was float charging.  So I will keep an eye on it today and see if it still behaves.  I have a Victoron BVM712 that I can used to check the voltages, one thing I hadn't done in the past was program it for alarm on overvoltage, I'll do that today. 

Fingers crossed!!

I KNEW that when my wife pulled the pins out of the Remote’s Voodoo doll she made….things would improve.

I don’t pretend to remember all the “super duper electronics” that they poured into me when I was a Junior in EE….but, I have learned a LOT here and at home and from working on PC’s since 1983.  With today’s integrated circuits….and complex “programs” built into or flashed on chips….STRANGE things happen.

Like the old adage about WD40 & a Swiss Army Knife & Duct Tape….if you can’t fix it with that….it be TOTALLY BROKE.  All I know is from feedback to members and also talking to the “former” old timer techs at Magnum.  Just HOPE this works.  I would, if you have that setup parameter…..turn the charging rate down.

Most of us don’t need full 100% charging…..and my recent “OMG Fault” showed me first hand….lower and slower is better.

Keep us posted.

FWIW….I got a quote locally for a member to compare.  I paid $115 or maybe $105 for Trojan T-105 in 2012 or so.  Then got a quote for a member passing through, who bought them in 2019 or so….$150. Shop was sold….and “spiffed up”.  Now they are $200 EACH.  BUT….still my $800 for 8 years is $100 per year….

Rock on….good luck….

[jacwjames]

So I kept track of the charging via the Victron BVM712 and went in to check the Trace monitor, only odd thing when I first started back up was it would chirp/click every once in a while

Thought I was going to get lucky until I went in and checked the monitor and it was rapidly clicking showing float charge.  I tried pressing both UP/Down arrows and it was initially unresponsive but finally got it to go into the setup menu but the buttons seemed to be hit of miss.   I did get the inverter to start and stop via the button on the display. 

So for the time being I turned the shore power off.  Tomorrow I'll check the battery voltage and I'm going to pull the remote out and clean the communication cable on both ends. 

But if the display continues to act up I guess I'll change it out. 

[Tom Cherry]

15 hours ago, jacwjames said:

So I kept track of the charging via the Victron BVM712 and went in to check the Trace monitor, only odd thing when I first started back up was it would chirp/click every once in a while

Thought I was going to get lucky until I went in and checked the monitor and it was rapidly clicking showing float charge.  I tried pressing both UP/Down arrows and it was initially unresponsive but finally got it to go into the setup menu but the buttons seemed to be hit of miss.   I did get the inverter to start and stop via the button on the display. 

So for the time being I turned the shore power off.  Tomorrow I'll check the battery voltage and I'm going to pull the remote out and clean the communication cable on both ends. 

But if the display continues to act up I guess I'll change it out. 

The MORE folks comment and I learn about the XANTREX....the "more common" that the issues are with the Magnum.  Since the Remote "Takes over", if the remote goes south....so will the Inverter.

Sorry it is turning out this way.

The "Easy" way to see if it is the REMOTE...assuming that the Xantrex will run on RESET Default Parameters.....DO THE HARD restart...and NOT plug in the Remote.  IF it charges...and you us your VOM to measure....you will immediately see what is happening.  Your Victron, since I don't know all the parameters and such of what it does....if it measures CURRENT and VOLTAGE....then reading it INSTEAD of the REMOTE will tell you.  You have, I know a GOOD FEEL for the charging profile.  AND if you do a "RUNDOWN test"....  Like putting a 450 Watt Halogen Trouble light on the Inverter....to discharge the batteries....then after an hour of so....DO the HARD RESTART and reboot the Inverter.....WITHOUT the remote...  If it goes to BULK as in pumping out say...  80 or so Amps at a high voltage....then starts to taper into ABSORB...and then reaches FLOAT...  You THEN KNOW....the Inverter is OK.  BUT, if it moans and groans and clicks and such....THEN the Inverter.

If it performs OK...then the Remote has taken over and is "messing" with the brains or the control parameters of the Inverter.  BUT, from what I know...finding a replacement is a bit tough.

That's it... GOOD LUCK.

[jacwjames]

18 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

I'm still scratching my head wondering why your battery bank would read 13.3v after being off charger for 20hrs!

Ya, I'm scratching my head on that also.  Going to check again this AM

[Tom Cherry]

2 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Ya, I'm scratching my head on that also.  Going to check again this AM

OK... There is a SURFACE charge that is put on the bank.  If you read the Battery 101 file, you HAVE to shave or drain off the Surface Charge.  Basically this how it works.

When you drain a bank....then you will see an immediately RECOVERY or the Voltage increase at the INSTANT you pull the load.  SAY you have a 40 or so 5 DC amp load....which is the equivalent of a 450 - 500 Watt Halogen light that is running off the inverter.  That is the RECOVERY voltage....as in....the LOAD is off...  That is NOT the TOTAL "DISCHARGED" or the VOLTAGE you read to determine how far down or what the SOC is.

You have to PULL the internal jumpers.  THEN...WAIT.  The battery then has a chance to "kick back and unwind".  After an hour or so....THEN you measure each individual 6 VDC battery.  THAT is the SOC Voltage...as in...you have RUN DOWN the battery X %.

OK....NOW....on the OTHER end.  You recharge the batteries...  They go to FLOAT.  Technically, the LONGER they stay in FLOAT, relatively speaking, the HIGHER the Surface Charge will be.  NOW...  That is NOT the 100% RECHARGED or "ALL THEY ARE GONNA TAKE OR DO" Voltage that you THEN measure to determine the condition...as in....  A 100% FULL RECHARGED BATTERY will be at 6.37.  IT will be HIGHER.  What you have to do....  you have to KNOCK OFF the Surface Charge.  Turning on a ceiling fan or such for a few minutes will bring it down.  You do this in a few small steps.  ONCE the VOLTAGE DROPS from say...  13.3 to say 12.8 or so....you KNOW that you have removed the surface charge.  THEN...pull the Jumpers.  THEN wait.  THEN measure the batteries.  If you get 6.37VDC....they are PERFECT.  BUT, if they are lower...you read the chart, and CONFIRM with the Specific Gravity, and THAT is their "MAX RECHARGED SOC.  If it is 6.31...then the battery is at a 90% SOC...and that is ALL it is gonna EVER DO.  Caveat...  You MUST exercise the batteries THREE times to recovery and restore or such the Specific Gravity and get the Cell to Cell Balanced.  THEN....it is SAFE TO SAY....these batteries will ONLY hold or have 90% of their NEW (225 Amp Hour) capacity.

THAT's how it works.  Class dismissed...  Study hard...their MAY be a Pop Quiz... 

[Ivan K]

My experience with our Xantrex 3012 is that charging settings survive the resets, with exception of TOD which is only critical for AGS. Even without the remote, the charger is always ON and inverting can be turned ON/OFF on the case itself.  My bet is that the button(s) or chip that reads them on the remote board are compromised and intermittently causing trouble, especially the last one to turn equalizing ON in your case. There really isn't much you can do on the remote when you open it up. Not a nondestructive way to get to the switches and the big eprom is a mystery by itself.

[Tom Cherry]

11 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

My experience with our Xantrex 3012 is that charging settings survive the resets, with exception of TOD which is only critical for AGS. Even without the remote, the charger is always ON and inverting can be turned ON/OFF on the case itself.  My bet is that the button(s) or chip that reads them on the remote board are compromised and intermittently causing trouble, especially the last one to turn equalizing ON in your case. There really isn't much you can do on the remote when you open it up. Not a nondestructive way to get to the switches and the big eprom is a mystery by itself.

I think we are on the SAME PAGE.  Magnum has a set of BUILT in parameters that allows it to operate....in a simplistic manner WITHOUT programming.  The base is 450 AH of batteries and the default parameters...that show up when you put on a remote will work for most MH's.

What I THINK I read, is that Xantrex....does the same.  THUS, if you don't plug in the remote...and it boots up and runs....and the INVERTER is OK....then, Jim's Victron SHOULD show the inverter working like it should.  I don't have the Victron...but I have used a VOM and Ammeter...and confirmed that mine will go to Bulk, Absorb and then Float....that is HOW I knew that my remote was bad.

THANKS for the post...

[jacwjames]

So this AM I did a quick check after having shore power off overnight.  The batteries were at 12.8 volts so that's good.

I then turned shore power on and the inverter display came to life.  I did go through the setup menu and for some reason it had the battery type at GEL and the LBCO was off, I had notes of when I had checked previously and I had Lead Acid flooded for battery type and LBCO on so I changed them to the correct settings.  But it wasn't chirping and it was float charging so I left it on and kept an eye on it. 

About an hour later I went in and the charger was in the Equalization mode.  I was able to get into the setting and drop it back to regular charging but at that point I didn't want to leave it plugged in so I disconnected the communication cable at the inverter. 

~2 hours later it was still in float charging mode so it appears the inverter remote display is bad.   I still want to pull the remote out and check the connection on the communication cable.

But I'm in the middle of putting a metal roof on a two covers on either side of my garage but should be done with that early next week.   I will start looking for a RC7GS remote in the mean time.

[jacwjames]

So after ~3 hrs the inverter/charging was working fine, charge was 13.4 volts based on the Victron display.   So I think that pretty much confirms it is the remote display.

So the hunt begins for  a remote display and or a new inverter. 

 

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, jacwjames said:

So after ~3 hrs the inverter/charging was working fine, charge was 13.4 volts based on the Victron display.   So I think that pretty much confirms it is the remote display.

So the hunt begins for  a remote display and or a new inverter. 

 

That is what I thought would be the issue….based on the same occurrences on many Magnums….and reading the manual for your inverter. It is a solid unit.  FWIW…. I’m going to speculate with some confidence that if you just ran it without the remote….it will work…..for a long time. I assume your shunt Victron is giving you the data.  If you dig deep enough, my “gut” tells me…. Xantrex designed it for a 450 AH Flooded Cell arrangement and the unit was and is capable, from a hard, factory restart, just like the Magnum, of operating WITHOUT a remote.  The charging rate may be a little high….but it is not a “spring chicken” so if it lasts a few more years….???

You can monitor with actual DVM measurements occasionally….and your Victron will give you the data that the remote did.  If the AGS is a stand alone….and not Remote integrated….I’d be tempted to run and monitor it.  

Thanks for keeping the faith and posting.  Your experiments and the results may also save someone else from getting rid of a functional inverter….when it was the Remote.

[jacwjames]

Yes, I am monitoring with the Victron VBM712, the Bluetooth feature is handy.  As long as I'm close enough I can bring it up on my phone.  I took the time to set up the alarms but they don't do you much good if your not in the coach. 

I'll continue to leave the inverter on and check on the voltages. 

FWIW, I do have a EC30W AGS system installed.  I primarily installed it to monitor temps while away from the coach and hooked to shore power, have it set to start the generator if the shore power dies and the temps climb and I use a low temp setting so it pretty much will start the generator.   Coupled with the MicroAir wifi thermostat I'm sitting in high cotton.   But the EC30W is also capable of AGS for voltage.  So I'm not completely dead in the water.  

But I did find a RC7 display that will at least give me programming ability.   Not sure how the someone could get by long term without a display and being able to check the settings.    

[Tom Cherry]

19 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Yes, I am monitoring with the Victron VBM712, the Bluetooth feature is handy.  As long as I'm close enough I can bring it up on my phone.  I took the time to set up the alarms but they don't do you much good if your not in the coach. 

I'll continue to leave the inverter on and check on the voltages. 

FWIW, I do have a EC30W AGS system installed.  I primarily installed it to monitor temps while away from the coach and hooked to shore power, have it set to start the generator if the shore power dies and the temps climb and I use a low temp setting so it pretty much will start the generator.   Coupled with the MicroAir wifi thermostat I'm sitting in high cotton.   But the EC30W is also capable of AGS for voltage.  So I'm not completely dead in the water.  

But I did find a RC7 display that will at least give me programming ability.   Not sure how the someone could get by long term without a display and being able to check the settings.    

Good.  But, curiosity???  Is there a section in the RC-7 or Xantrex manual that actually LISTS the defaults or the standalones for the inverter?  That would be into see….or compare as to how you would differ.  The only one, might be the charging rate.  That would be the only one I would want to control.

You’re savvy enough and have a way to monitor….way ahead of others.  

Keep us posted….how we learn

[jacwjames]

The setup of the inverter using the remote display has a lot of settings.  Everything from battery amps to charge rate.   No idea how to do it without a remote. 

@Ivan K suggested that possibly it is retained in memory but my issue was that the darn then went to equalization again, I had to use the remote display to get it back to normal.  I can monitor charge voltage but would still want to be able to monitor the settings.  I think the most useful one is the charge amps so that if plugged into a 20 amp outlet the amps can be turned down. 

 

FWIW, I also installed a small 1200 watt backup inverter just in case.  It does have the ability to run my refrigerator and charge batteries if needed.  I pretty much copied an install that Bill G did, mounted the smaller inverter behind the TV in the bedroom.  I wired in a power strip so could get by in a pinch using it for other minor loads. 

Funny how ~30 years ago we traveled in a GMC suburban with a tent coupled to the back and were completely satisfied.  We now need rolling homes!!!