Xantrex inverter equalizing on it's own

[96 EVO]

So, you don't still have the manual for it?

If it was a Magnum, it would use the default settings. That's 100% on charge rate, and I'm not sure what they used for default Amp Hours.

[jacwjames]

2 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

So, you don't still have the manual for it?

If it was a Magnum, it would use the default settings. That's 100% on charge rate, and I'm not sure what they used for default Amp Hours.

When I went back in to look at the settings it had battery type as AGM, not Lead Acid.   But this may have been the bad remote.  I've unplugged for now and will monitor voltage via the Victron BMV712

[96 EVO]

Do you have a battery temperature sensor hooked up?

If so, I would unplug it. They have been known to fail and create havoc.  

[StephenW]

The RV 3012 Owners manual is in the downloads section and in reading the manual I see that the only way to change the settings to the inverter is with the RC7 remote. On page 34 of the manual is a chart of the settings for the inverter.  The values in the left hand column are the default settings.  I noticed the default setting for battery type is Gel Cell.

 

 

 

 

RV3012_owners.pdf

[jacwjames]

10 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Do you have a battery temperature sensor hooked up?

If so, I would unplug it. They have been known to fail and create havoc.  

Yes, temp sensor hooked up.  But when I unplugged the remote the inverter started charging normally so I think that would rule out problem with temp sensor

 

9 hours ago, StephenW said:

The RV 3012 Owners manual is in the downloads section and in reading the manual I see that the only way to change the settings to the inverter is with the RC7 remote. On page 34 of the manual is a chart of the settings for the inverter.  The values in the left hand column are the default settings.  I noticed the default setting for battery type is Gel Cell.

 

 

 

 

RV3012_owners.pdf 621.91 kB · 8 downloads

Thanks, Good info but if the default setting is for a Gel Cell battery vs my lead acid I wonder what the long term impact would be as I assume the charge profile would be different. 

That may explain why when I went into the settings after it started to act up the battery type was listed as Gel Cell. 

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

9 hours ago, StephenW said:

The RV 3012 Owners manual is in the downloads section and in reading the manual I see that the only way to change the settings to the inverter is with the RC7 remote. On page 34 of the manual is a chart of the settings for the inverter.  The values in the left hand column are the default settings.  I noticed the default setting for battery type is Gel Cell.

 

 

 

 

RV3012_owners.pdf 621.91 kB · 8 downloads

Thanks,

It appears that we do not have that manual in the files.  We DO have the RC7-GS programming manual.  I cross referenced the remote manual with the inverter manual.

I believe you are correct, although it is a BIT PUZZLING as to WHY some of the defaults, especially the battery type are set like they were.  It is almost like the "programmer" wrote the code or the sequence without any REAL operating or "Marketing Data....as to the most intended use".  UNFORTUNATELY...that does happen.  Magnum's defaults are more real world.

This is from the RG7-GC programming ... now that "ASSUMES" that the built in parameters in the inverter are the same as what will be "read" by the meter.  In essence, the meter, I think, is supposed to read the Inverter.  Magnum makes it clear that the Inverter's Defaults....are what the Remote will diplay...so IF the Remote came, out of the box...programmed to the defaults....one then should assume that those are the same as the remote....

1. Search Sense = DEFEAT
2. Auto LBCO = OFF
3. Battery Capacity = AUTO
4. Battery Type = GEL Cell
5. Charge Rate = 100%
6. Shore Power = 30A

The rest of the RC7-GS is for the "functions"

Here is the file we have.  

@Frank McElroy

I was unable to find the Trace Xantex Inverter manual that @StephenW listed.  There is a "White Paper" on how to set up the Inverter...however, it does NOT list the defaults and such...  I tried Trace and Xantrex and only got the "how to" but not the manual itself

[Frank McElroy]

9 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Thanks,

It appears that we do not have that manual in the files.  We DO have the RC7-GS programming manual.  I cross referenced the remote manual with the inverter manual.

I believe you are correct, although it is a BIT PUZZLING as to WHY some of the defaults, especially the battery type are set like they were.  It is almost like the "programmer" wrote the code or the sequence without any REAL operating or "Marketing Data....as to the most intended use".  UNFORTUNATELY...that does happen.  Magnum's defaults are more real world.

This is from the RG7-GC programming ... now that "ASSUMES" that the built in parameters in the inverter are the same as what will be "read" by the meter.  In essence, the meter, I think, is supposed to read the Inverter.  Magnum makes it clear that the Inverter's Defaults....are what the Remote will diplay...so IF the Remote came, out of the box...programmed to the defaults....one then should assume that those are the same as the remote....

1. Search Sense = DEFEAT
2. Auto LBCO = OFF
3. Battery Capacity = AUTO
4. Battery Type = GEL Cell
5. Charge Rate = 100%
6. Shore Power = 30A

The rest of the RC7-GS is for the "functions"

Here is the file we have.  

@Frank McElroy

I was unable to find the Trace Xantex Inverter manual that @StephenW listed.  There is a "White Paper" on how to set up the Inverter...however, it does NOT list the defaults and such...  I tried Trace and Xantrex and only got the "how to" but not the manual itself

Tom, If you searched the name Xantrex you would have found it in the Electrical Section.  I just moved it to the inverter section to make it easier to find.

 

I also added a bit more to the description so if you search for 3012 it will now come up.

[jacwjames]

So I've been monitoring the inverter and it is keeping the batteries charging at ~13.3 volts. 

But today shut the shore power off to see if it would automatically go into the inverting mode>>>  it didn't.  So I guess without a remote I'm dead in the water.

Still waiting on the RC7 control panel, hope it does but if it doesn't I'll be looking for a Magnum. 

[96 EVO]

4 hours ago, jacwjames said:

So I've been monitoring the inverter and it is keeping the batteries charging at ~13.3 volts. 

But today shut the shore power off to see if it would automatically go into the inverting mode>>>  it didn't.  So I guess without a remote I'm dead in the water.

Still waiting on the RC7 control panel, hope it does but if it doesn't I'll be looking for a Magnum. 

Yeah, that's an issue!

I don't think my Magnum would either, without me pressing the button on the remote!

[jacwjames]

I have to check the switch on the inverter tomorrow.  The manual says if the inverter remote is not attached it will default to inverting but the switch has to be on.  I know when I looked at the small LED light it was on but I may have turned the switch off.  I'll report back tomorrow.  It is suppose to default to invert if there is no incoming power. 

[jacwjames]

So I went back out and checked on the switch that turns the inverter off/on.  It was in the ON position so when I dropped shore power it should have automatically started to invert but it didn't.  I tried cycling the switch a couple times and disconnecting but it never would invert.   So I may have a deeper problem then just the remote.  

I know with the remote hooked up I could turn on/off the inverter but then it would start acting up so I disconnected.  So was it the inverter/charger acting up playing havoc with the remote??  

I'll find out Thursday when I receive the RC7 remote. 

[jacwjames]

So yesterday I tried to toggle the inverter button on to off, the inverter would not come on.  This was with the coach unplugged and remote display unplugged. 

This AM I tried again, not change.  So I went ahead and plugged the inverter display back in.  With the coach unplugged from shore power I used the remote display to turn on the inverter, it came on and powered up the microwave.  

So then I unplugged the display and the inverter stayed.  Last time I looked it was still on.   So the inverter does work but for some reason didn't come on the first time I used the switch on the inverter but after I used the remote to turn the inverter on the toggle switched worked.  Wonder if it had to be in it's memory for the inverter switch to work. 

Going to try it several time over the next could days. 

[jacwjames]

Check on the status of my inverter this AM, it was still inverting.  Flipped off and then back on and the inverter came back on. 

[96 EVO]

Yeah, I think the Magnum's have inverting on / off in the memory as well.

Not sure what it would do if you disconnected from batteries.

Edited September 11 by 96 EVO

[jacwjames]

3 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Yeah, I think the Magnum's have inverting on / off in the memory as well.

Not sure what it would do if you disconnected from batteries.

Good question and I may try just to see the results. 

It doesn't make sense that if you disconnect batteries and the inverter wouldn't start without a remote.   When I did that before I had the remote plugged in and inverter off, maybe it goes back to the last setting.

Either way, once I receive the RC7 remote and see if it works will pretty much seal the fate of the inverter.  I have to have confidence it is right, getting ready to leave on a trip in ~3 weeks so if there is any doubt I will replace. 

[96 EVO]

I would think it will start without the remote. Question is, will it start with inverting turned on.

[jacwjames]

So I cycled the inverter on/off switch several times and the inverter started each time.

I then disconnected the batteries and left shore power off for ~1.5 hours.  I then connected the batteries again and the inverter started when I flipped the switch to on. 

So it seems to be working as it should. 

Still waiting for the RC7 display

[Tom Cherry]

5 hours ago, jacwjames said:

Good question and I may try just to see the results. 

It doesn't make sense that if you disconnect batteries and the inverter wouldn't start without a remote.   When I did that before I had the remote plugged in and inverter off, maybe it goes back to the last setting.

Either way, once I receive the RC7 remote and see if it works will pretty much seal the fate of the inverter.  I have to have confidence it is right, getting ready to leave on a trip in ~3 weeks so if there is any doubt I will replace. 

OK....I can speak for the MAGNUM.....and hopefully the Xantrex will be the same.  The INVERTER is designed to WORK WITHOUT A REMOTE.  When you install or do a HARD restart (taking off BOTH Power leads and letting the rascal sit to dissipate any ghost electrons)....THEN.

It is in the DEFAULT MODE.  We know that that is from the previous posts.  NOW....when you POWER ON the Inverter....  Either the PUSH BUTTON on the Magnum or the Switch on the Xantrex.  BINGO....it boots up.  IT LOOKS (as does our HVAC Systems) for any "devices".  These would be the AGS or the BATT TEMP Sensor....or a REMOTE.

If it FINDS or the Remote says... HEY....I'm IN CHARGE HERE...  THEN the Magnum (Xantrex) complies.  BUT, if there is NO REMOTE... it says.  OK....I'm ON MY OWN and I have the DEFAULT Parameters Loaded and I can exist or take it from here.

YES...  This is from Magnum....as well as many different tests.....and not some INTERNET BS.  My inverter, when the remote was funky....performed flawlessly.  You just TURNED IT ON....  Then when there was AC incoming....it reverted BACK to Charging and let the AC pass through.  I tested the charger with different levels....and it would do the BULK or Absorb or FLOAT.  That is the way it was DESIGNED to run....and there was NO NEED for a REMOTE.

If you had to have a REMOTE to make it work....then that would have been part of the Package.  The ONLY thing in the box is the Inverter and the BTS.

SO....  It appears from what is posted...  The inverter (Xantrex) is OK.  Leave it ON.  If you POWER IT OFF....it should come back to the Defaults.  BUT, if one is skittish....then pull the CABLES...and do the START UP.  From that point....leave it alone.  It will swap back and worth between Inverting and Charging based on the default setting.

NOW....the bad thing.....the GEL setting.  BUT, if one could TALK to Xantrex....then one could find out exactly HOW that DIFFERS from the FLOODED....  May be close.  Do NOT know.  Xantrex Tech Support should know that.

PERSONALLY....and I know that Jim is trying to find a solution....  I would let the sucker run.  I would (disconnected batteries....let them rest for an hour) test the Batteries.   What is the percentage SOC.  Then you hook things back up.  Monitor the Voltage and the Amps (I think Jim has the Victron that will do that). As long as the voltage is not in the high 14's or low 15's....LIKE IT WAS WHEN THE REMOTE SAID.... EQUALIZE....then let it run.  That is NOT harming the batteries.

Again, Xantrex has a Charging Profile with Volts and Amps for each type.  If you can get hold of that....then compare the GEL to the Flooded.

That's MY TAKE....OK....you guys know my CURIOSITY.... here is what I FOUND......

Gel batteries generally require a specific charge profile, and a gel specific or gel selectable or gel suitable charger is called for. The peak charging voltage for Gel batteries is 14.1 or 14.4 volts, which is lower than a wet or AGM type battery needs for a full charge.

That's pretty CLEAR.  SO, I called Trojan.  Got a knowledgeable tech.  He spent almost an hour on the phone.  Here is what he says...

IN THEORY.....you should ALWAYS set the Inverter to the PROFILE.  So, the Flooded Cells are supposed to be BULK CHARGED at 14.0 or even up to 15.  That BULK CHARGE....at the PROPER Amperage is needed to totally "replenish" or recharge the cells under optimum conditions.

BUT, the GEL or the AGM's are supposed to be charged at a LOWER "BULK" voltage....thus the 14.1 to 14.8.  THEREFORE, he would drain down the bank....to say 50%.  THEN let the Inverter in it's DEFAULT state.....take over.  IF you get the HIGH 14.'s or even a LOW 15....then that will be OK for a Flooded....BUT if it is in the 14.1 - 14.4 VDC rate.....it will....and it will be a LONG TIME....not instantly.....cut into the life of a Flooded cell.  The term BULK means "SOCK IT TO IT"....thus the higher Voltage.

SO.....TEST and EXPERIMENT.  IF the voltage is High at a 50% Drained SOC.....then the Inverter may not have a really "PRECISE" profile....and SOME are better than others.

NOW....THIS IS FOR ALL MEMBERS.....and I will post this later....

Due to the deterioration of the Heat Sink Thermal compound.....turning down a Charging Rate.....CAN STILL WORK.

Bottom Line....for Troajn's and this PROBABLY applies to all Flooded....  You need at least 13% of the AMP HOUR Capacity when your are in BULK.  So...  13% of 450 is 58.5 AMPS.  IF you turn down the charging rate....and STILL Maintain 60 Amps or so.....that WILL give you, in theory, longer life of the electronics or the FET's.  In my case....the 80 amps on a moderately warm (not 95 dF) day.....overheated the FET's.  I had the ERROR.  I do NOT know if one of the fans is bad.....a task for another day.  BUT, as long as I maintain at least 60 Amps....at BULK....then the Batteries (Specifically Trojan T-105) are NOT being damaged and I have meeting the criteria for the NORMAL Bulk (SOCK IT TO IT) parameter.

Hope this helps.  EXPERIMENT....

BUT to address the question.  The inverters were MADE to be SELF SUSTAINING and it is ONLY when you have a profile that is NOT appropriate for the batteries....will you have a problem.  Magnum "knew" or lucked into this....so the Default is FLOODED and 450 AH.

 

[jacwjames]

@Tom Cherry

Thanks for the info.  I did read the Trace manual and realized that after I disconnected the display from the inverter the inverter should have started but it didn't.  That's why I started playing with it. 

The only way I could get it to work was to plug the display back in and turn the inverter on from there.  I then unplugged the display and it has worked correctly since, testing it several times since then including disconnecting the batteries for +1 hour.

My only guess is that when the display was unplugged with the inverter off it would not come on with the switch on the inverter, that was in it's memory, but that seems odd.  BUT it's working now.

Last time I checked, when I plugged the coach back into shore power the charge rate was 13.3 volts.  I had the coach unplugged for 3 days to monitor voltage and it slowly dissipated and finally down to 12 volts today while my wife was in the coach cleaning and using the vacuum on the inverter.  The Victron display started beeping for the low voltage alarm, which I just recently set, good to know it works.  So turned the power back on to let it charge. 

Still have not received the RC7 display, sent inquiry to the company to see what's going on. 

Edited September 12 by jacwjames

[Tom Cherry]

26 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

@Tom Cherry

Thanks for the info.  I did read the Trace manual and realized that after I disconnected the display from the inverter the inverter should have started but it didn't.  That's why I started playing with it. 

The only way I could get it to work was to plug the display back in and turn the inverter on from there.  I then unplugged the display and it has worked correctly since, testing it several times since then including disconnecting the batteries for +1 hour.

My only guess is that when the display was unplugged with the inverter off it would not come on with the switch on the inverter, that was in it's memory, but that seems odd.  BUT it's working now.

Last time I checked, when I plugged the coach back into shore power the charge rate was 13.3 volts.  I had the coach unplugged for 3 days to monitor voltage and it slowly dissipated and finally down to 12 volts today while my wife was in the coach cleaning and using the vacuum on the inverter.  The Victron display started beeping for the low voltage alarm, which I just recently set, good to know it works.  So turned the power back on to let it charge. 

Still have not received the RC7 display, sent inquiry to the company to see what's going on. 

My advice and as I said….”Inverters be Inverters”….but supposedly they have defaults.  Run down, it will be good for them, your bank with about a 40 - 50 amp draw (or 450 - 500 watt AC load) until you see 11.7 on the DVOM on the bank….or, assuming your Victron displays this.  That will be 50% SOC…..when the Load is removed….and a out 12.0 will be, if not charging, the at REST and RECOVERY voltage….aka 50%.

Let the house bank REST.  As in NO LOAD for a few minutes.  The inverter should immediately go to Bulk Charge.  THAT is the voltage you need to read. I’d use my DVOM as well as the Victron. Also note the Amps.  It should be in the high 14’s and amps in the 60 - 90 or so (relative numbers). THAT is BULK Phase.  If the voltage is lower or in the 14.1 - 14.4…..then the inverter is in the GEL/AGM setup.

Only REAL WAY to tell.  If the voltage is OK and amps are OK…..then leave the sucker ON and go for it.  You’ll be OK and not damaging your bank.

This is what my assumptions were…..and Trojan confirmed.  ONLY WAY TO KNOW….with a “flaky” remote….that “seems” to randomly just MESS UP things.  Looking forward to what you find out…

Thanks.

[jacwjames]

Well, I kept checking on the replacement RC7 remote that I had ordered and the shipping status didn't change and I still hadn't received.  The site I ordered it from was RV Part Monkey.  I started doing some digging and that site is connected to Master Tech RV in Elkhart IN.   So I started to call, first shipping, then sales, then accounting, NO ONE picks up a phone.  Then did a general search and turns out the business closed down recently (on poster implied fraud).   Can't understand why the website isn't being shut down. 

So I will call my CC company and get the charge removed (hopefully). 

I called Visione RV in London KY and they don't have any remotes, he said they get gone as fast as they come in.  They don't put you on a waiting list so will just have to check back.  May have to drive up there and camp out and wait for a coach to be brought in.  I was up there in Nov 2023 and they brought in 2 Monaco coaches that day. 

I also found that Radwell International offers a repair service so I called, $399 if it is repairable.  But I'm getting ready to leave on my trip so  probably won't do that right now. 

I did remove the remote from the cabinet, unplugged and plugged in the communication cable several time.  The display reboots and connects to the inverter and works but it will start chirping/clicking like it was doing before.  But I can use it to turn on off the inverter. 

So what I plan to do is keep looking for a remote, take my trip and carry the display and plug it in as necessary.  Since the inverter seems to be working fine and it's charging my batteries at 13.3 volts I should be OK.  I can monitor the voltage with the Victron display and I now have the alarms set up.   If by chance I need AGS I'll use the EC30W remote to do that. 

[jacwjames]

Sometimes you just get lucky.  I called the Inverter Sales and Service on whim and talked to sales and asked if they might have a used remote.  He first said no, they sold the last one they had, but he checked their inventory and they just got one listed, $350 so I bought it.   If it works I'll be home free for a while.  There is also a backup plan to send my old one in to Radwell. 

 

I looked on Google Earth for the location of Master Tech RV, map image was older so I called the business across the street and talk to a receptionist and asked if the Master Tech RV was closed down, she didn't know but walked outside>>>> the parking lot was empty so I guess they are.

Call MasterCard and disputed the charge, after going through a bunch of questions on my attempts to cancel the order or get a refund the dispute was filed, have to wait up to 60 days. 

[96 EVO]

Yikes.

$350 for a used inverter remote 😖!

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Sometimes you just get lucky.  I called the Inverter Sales and Service on whim and talked to sales and asked if they might have a used remote.  He first said no, they sold the last one they had, but he checked their inventory and they just got one listed, $350 so I bought it.   If it works I'll be home free for a while.  There is also a backup plan to send my old one in to Radwell. 

 

I looked on Google Earth for the location of Master Tech RV, map image was older so I called the business across the street and talk to a receptionist and asked if the Master Tech RV was closed down, she didn't know but walked outside>>>> the parking lot was empty so I guess they are.

Call MasterCard and disputed the charge, after going through a bunch of questions on my attempts to cancel the order or get a refund the dispute was filed, have to wait up to 60 days. 

GREAT.  BUT, if you really want to KNOW that your inverter is working....then I'd, because I am a CURIOUS CUSS, would run the 50% DRAIN test.  THEN start the Bulk Recharge.  If it goes to the high 14's...you know that the OLD remote...IF YOU EVER HAD TO USE IT... Would work.  That would ALSO tell you what the Default setting are.

Just my personality.  You NOW KNOW...and I learned from Trojan that when you have FLOODED....that the BULK needs to be performed at the upper 14's...and if you have GEL/AGM, then the profile should start the BULK at 14.1 - 14.4.

THAT is a handy fact to know....for those of us that have to "speak many tongues"

Good SHOW.  You will get you $$ back.  

Good news.  HOPE the remote works....  Demand is Demand....  I guess lots of folks trying to nurse along older Inverters.  BUT TIME and the FET Heat Sink Deterioration will eventually TAKE ITS TOLL....unfortunately.

[jacwjames]

On 9/13/2024 at 1:07 PM, Tom Cherry said:

GREAT.  BUT, if you really want to KNOW that your inverter is working....then I'd, because I am a CURIOUS CUSS, would run the 50% DRAIN test.  THEN start the Bulk Recharge.  If it goes to the high 14's...you know that the OLD remote...IF YOU EVER HAD TO USE IT... Would work.  That would ALSO tell you what the Default setting are.

Just my personality.  You NOW KNOW...and I learned from Trojan that when you have FLOODED....that the BULK needs to be performed at the upper 14's...and if you have GEL/AGM, then the profile should start the BULK at 14.1 - 14.4.

THAT is a handy fact to know....for those of us that have to "speak many tongues"

Good SHOW.  You will get you $$ back.  

Good news.  HOPE the remote works....  Demand is Demand....  I guess lots of folks trying to nurse along older Inverters.  BUT TIME and the FET Heat Sink Deterioration will eventually TAKE ITS TOLL....unfortunately.

I had been doing continual testing of the system since the RC7GS display failed.  But last week I left the charger off and monitored the battery level.  I had removed the display from the cabinet and unplugged it there and used the Victron BVM to monitor the voltage. 

Finally on Sunday the voltage went to 11.8 volt so I started the charging process, I plugged in the display momentarily and it was bulk charging.  As before the display started clicking and would flash back and forth between bulk and equalizing so I unplugged it.  I would periodically check the charging and finally the when it got to ~90% I plugged back in the monitor and it the charging had dropped to absorption charge.  This AM I checked and it had dropped to float charge. 

So the inverter itself is working as it should, but the display not so much>>>>but I am suppose to receive the replacement today.