Brake failure behind RV crash and fatality.

[jacwjames]

This was posted on IRV2 forum and probably worth posting here.  We have a number new coach owners and need to be aware of potential brake failure and/or over speed while descending grades. 

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/local/brake-failure-behind-rv-crash/article_69a5142a-5b48-11ef-9afa-ef52ce4d7933.html

With the condition of the coach after the crash I am surprised the other 4 occupants survived.

 

Last year I traveled through Colorado and descended some of the challenging grades including Wolf Creek Pass and Monarch Pass.  I only have a Pac Brake and make sure to inspect and lubricate several times a year.  I actually installed a momentary button so I can test and observe it's operation.   I'm getting ready to take another trip in October and will inspect again. 

So just a word for everyone to be safe.

 

[Martinvz]

This group has so much knowledge and I have learnt so much.

My coach is 18 years old and on our last trip we wore out the rear brakes. It is a gas coach and does not have air brakes. It is a Workhorse W24 chassis with Meritor 4 piston calipers for the brakes. I took it for the annual state inspection and the tech found that the brakes were completely worn out.

On removal it was found that the caliper pistons were not retracting resulting in the replacement of rotors, calipers and brake pads. That was an expensive fix but thank the Lord that we made it home safely.

The question I have is what preventative maintenance can be done to the calipers to ensure safe operation for many years of use?

Edited September 7 by Martinvz

[Tom Cherry]

56 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

This was posted on IRV2 forum and probably worth posting here.  We have a number new coach owners and need to be aware of potential brake failure and/or over speed while descending grades. 

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/local/brake-failure-behind-rv-crash/article_69a5142a-5b48-11ef-9afa-ef52ce4d7933.html

With the condition of the coach after the crash I am surprised the other 4 occupants survived.

 

Last year I traveled through Colorado and descended some of the challenging grades including Wolf Creek Pass and Monarch Pass.  I only have a Pac Brake and make sure to inspect and lubricate several times a year.  I actually installed a momentary button so I can test and observe it's operation.   I'm getting ready to take another trip in October and will inspect again. 

So just a word for everyone to be safe.

 

Let me add a "HISTORICAL" or the past posts about this scene of this accident.  If you drive down to the Tetons from West Jefferson to Jackson Hole, you go THROUGH the Tetons Pass and into Wilson.  It was often referenced on the old Yahoo site.  There is a garage in Wilson.  It has (I saw it....at least in 2018) the SAME SIGN it has had for years.  Free Coffee while Brakes are Fixed...  OR something like that.

For those that have NEVER done this trip...here is my recollection.  The trip is about 3 hours.  You can reconstruct it by using Google Maps and start at West Yellowstone and end up at Jackson Hole.  It is an unbelievable drive. We were camped in West Yellowstone.  We wanted the GK's to see the Tetons....so we drove the Hummer (H3). My daughter said that I had driven enough so she drove.  the drive south before you head SE is unforgettable.  BUT, when you exit off US 20 and head SE on WY 32....that is a site to behold.  We did it in late July, 2018.  You go over rolling hills....and all of a sudden...you are in the "Amber waves of Grain".  I will never listen to America the Beautiful without thinking about that drive.  Even the GK's (teenagers) stopped talking...

SO....I KNEW it was gonna get worse...It is a nice four lane road before the GRADE hits.  I almost had to pull rank on my Daughter and let me take over.... She does have an "ocassional" panic attack...mostly on bridges looking over the side.  The pass provides many opportunities to look over and never see anything but a DROP.  About half way down....the ultimate DAD compliment.  OMG, I would have freaked out....  SO...on we drove.

We passed by the garage. 

IF you blow up the map and center on Wilson....you get the IDEA and you can see the pass.  THIS IS TREACHEROUS.

From a PRACTICAL point of view....for the "NON Rocky Mountain REGULAR MH Owners", I had purchased the Mountain Guide West version.  I reported a grade not in it to the author and he sent me the East as a gift...  IT DOES tell you WHAT is coming up. Back then, I found a Website that you could plot the elevation and it gave you the exact grades and such.  I plotted and printed out all the ugly ones...and had my GS help me or follow along as we did them.

I only have the Standard VGT Cumming Exhaust Brake.  I have driven on all 48 states and am careful.  I frequently do the Black Mountain section of I-40.  I rarely use my service brakes and keep the Allison in 2nd...  IT WILL upshift to keep from overreving the "compression braking" limits of the ISL.  That is around 2,600 (memory). I did the West Bound I 70 Eisenhower pass...and used the same trick.  Pull over.  Shift to 2nd...manually...and then drive...  It works...

Pity about the loss of life...but this is a KNOWN stretch of road that has had many accidents.  I needed to leave West Yellowstone and head east.  The Mountain Guide told me about a TREACHEROUS section outside of Yellowstone....about midway across Wyoming.  Say HELLO to Montana.  We went north and used an interstate (memory) in Montana and also stopped at "Custer's Last Stand".  TRULY a great route and we enjoyed the tour of the site.

DRIVE CAREFULLY....BUT the BOOKS and pay attention and PLAN AHEAD...

I  

[jacwjames]

One thing to check when changing pads on any type of caliper brake is to make sure that they release.  The flexible portion of the brake line can fail internally and act like a check valve not letting the brake fluid flow easily back to the reservoir.  I happened to stop by the mechanic I sometimes use just to BS, he was replacing the brakes on a 3/4 ton truck and when he tried to collapse the caliper he couldn't, the brake line had failed and he had to replace. 

Had this happen on my wifes Chrysler van and the front brake actually caught fire. 

Also check your manual on proper braking and driving, I know in my Class C I'd downshift to a lower gear and be able to control speed pretty good, still have to use brakes some but I didn't have to ride them. 

I also use Google earth and check my route prior to driving it an in the mountains pay attention to elevation changes.   On my last trip I knew I was in for some grades so I mentally prepared myself and paid attention to the signs.  When you start seeing truck warning signs on grades it's time to slow down. 

[PeterSchweizer]

Another thing to do on 10 yr and older rigs is the brake fluid replacement. On my 04 34 ft Cayman I have Hydraulic disk brakes that are power assisted by the powersteering pump. I had just gotten off freeway n was in line for emissions check as I entered the building I had no brakes!!!!  Used emegency air brake to stop. Found out that the master cylinder had rusted the piston n bore  internaly, alowing fluid to pass by piston. I guess that the  prev owner had not changed fluid n think that condinsation in master cylinder reservior was what caused this?

I bleed out fluid when I purchased it in 2017 with 89,000 miles -now have 122,000.  Also while bleeding the brakes n fluid flush,  after Master cylinder replacement,  the left front caliper-metal brake line started leaking as it had chafed thru at the line clamp on the caliper - replaced all brake lines n hose assembly at all calipers. It could have been deadly!!!

 

[96 EVO]

Looks like a DP.

Wonder if the driver pulled his Emergency brake.

[throgmartin]

1 hour ago, 96 EVO said:

Looks like a DP.

Wonder if the driver pulled his Emergency brake.

I know from experience, pulling the emergency brake at speed will bring the rear end around on a DP. I was teaching my ex-wife how to drive the coach when we first bought it. On an exit I told her to hit the exhaust brake. She thought I meant the emergency brake and pulled it. We were at around 55 mph and the rear end started coming around. She quickly released the emergency brake, steered out of the skid and got the coach going straight again. She never panicked and handled it like a Pro.

I have no idea what the brake bias ( front to rear percentage ) on our coaches is but with the way the rear end came around it is obvious the percentage is higher in the front similar to a car. I would caution anyone about pulling that emergency brake switch when at a high rate of speed. I always start down a long grade at 55 mph or less, use the exhaust brake and if I get close to exceeding the RPM's, stab the brakes and release after 15 seconds and continue that action till my RPM/Speed drops so the exhaust brake resumes in helping to slow the momentum. It is all about managing speed and RPM's early on, not half way down a big grade.

[96 EVO]

7 minutes ago, throgmartin said:

  It is all about managing speed and RPM's early on, not half way down a big grade.

That's for sure!

There are Heavy RV owners that think they are just driving a big car!

The ones who are driving in mountains for the first time can be dangerous!

[PeterSchweizer]

1 hour ago, 96 EVO said:

Looks like a DP.

Wonder if the driver pulled his Emergency brake.

The emergency brake on mine is actually an air actuatored  "parking brake" so it's  either on or off, no in-between control. It clamps a set of brake  shoes around the drive shaft  as it Exits the transmission, not the wheels, which cans case  more damage and loss of control 

[Rodger]

6 hours ago, Martinvz said:

On removal it was found that the caliper pistons were not retracting resulting in the replacement of rotors, calipers and brake pads. That was an expensive fix but thank the Lord that we made it home safely.

Not sure on the Workhorse but my previous coach was a gas Ford chassis. I had extreme brake wear after changing pads on the rear due to pistons sticking. The pistons were a phenolic material and had swollen. I replaced all four calipers with ones rebuilt with steel pistons. No issue after until I sold it with 130,000 miles on it. Just another reminder on those type brakes to makes sure the calipers are free.
 

Luckily not an issue on present HR coach. Just got back from a trip up the Blue Ridge and the Allegheny’s so I got to rest my downhill skills several times.  As stated by others, slow it down before the grade not after entering. 

[Jdw12345]

Not that it has any bearing on the thread, but Teton Pass is closed in the winter to any vehicle pulling a trailer. 
 

As a former Owner Operator running to the west coast from Mn, I couldn’t agree more with the statement above about most large RV drivers driving like they’re in a car, watched this for a tad over 3 million miles. Unfortunately with today’s braking technology, in most personal vehicles, most drivers are lured into a false sense of security that they can easily stop and control there vehicle simply by applying the brakes, in your personal vehicle, maybe! 
 

 One more thing to keep in mind when you’re strolling down the mountain with the exhaust/compression brake sufficiently holding the coach back, whatca going to do if it fails half way down! Unlikely, yes……

You can go down a mountain a thousand times to slow, you only go down them once to fast……..

 Sorry for the rant of sorts, just witnessed poor driving for to long!

 

 Sorry for the family’s loss……

Edited September 7 by Jdw12345

[Martinvz]

On the Workhorse chassis there is (at least on some of the models if not all) a Downhill Assist mode that can be activated that will shift down and enhace the engine braking. This is similar to the Towhaul mode of the Ford chassis.

[dl_racing427]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:34 AM, jacwjames said:

One thing to check when changing pads on any type of caliper brake is to make sure that they release.  The flexible portion of the brake line can fail internally and act like a check valve not letting the brake fluid flow easily back to the reservoir.  I happened to stop by the mechanic I sometimes use just to BS, he was replacing the brakes on a 3/4 ton truck and when he tried to collapse the caliper he couldn't, the brake line had failed and he had to replace. 

Had this happen on my wifes Chrysler van and the front brake actually caught fire. 

Also check your manual on proper braking and driving, I know in my Class C I'd downshift to a lower gear and be able to control speed pretty good, still have to use brakes some but I didn't have to ride them. 

I also use Google earth and check my route prior to driving it an in the mountains pay attention to elevation changes.   On my last trip I knew I was in for some grades so I mentally prepared myself and paid attention to the signs.  When you start seeing truck warning signs on grades it's time to slow down. 

I had a Winnebago on a P30 chassis.  Had trouble with a front brake dragging, which turned out to be the hose deteriorating internally.
Definitely check that.

[Ivan K]

1 hour ago, dl_racing427 said:

I had a Winnebago on a P30 chassis.  Had trouble with a front brake dragging, which turned out to be the hose deteriorating internally.
Definitely check that.

I had it happen on two old cars also, definitely a good point to check.

[Ivylog]

On 9/7/2024 at 12:25 PM, 96 EVO said:

Looks like a DP.

Wonder if the driver pulled his Emergency brake.

What good will that do??? Yes, it will put some pressure on the brakes (not as much as the brake pedal) but once there’re overheated that’s not going to help.

[96 EVO]

3 minutes ago, Ivylog said:

What good will that do??? Yes, it will put some pressure on the brakes (not as much as the brake pedal) but once there’re overheated that’s not going to help.

Rocketing down a grade out of control.

Try everything available to you.

[Ivylog]

You have a gear shift lever for a reason on a gas rig… use it to make the engine act as your brake…does much the same as an exhaust brake but on the intake side of the engine.

10 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Rocketing down a grade out of control.

Try everything available to you.

On a car/PU with rear disk brakes the emergency brake is an additional braking mechanism so yes that would help but you said “pulling the emergency brake” which is on air brakes.

[Beemermcr]

On 9/7/2024 at 2:24 PM, Jdw12345 said:

Not that it has any bearing on the thread, but Teton Pass is closed in the winter to any vehicle pulling a trailer. 
 

As a former Owner Operator running to the west coast from Mn, I couldn’t agree more with the statement above about most large RV drivers driving like they’re in a car, watched this for a tad over 3 million miles. Unfortunately with today’s braking technology, in most personal vehicles, most drivers are lured into a false sense of security that they can easily stop and control there vehicle simply by applying the brakes, in your personal vehicle, maybe! 
 

 One more thing to keep in mind when you’re strolling down the mountain with the exhaust/compression brake sufficiently holding the coach back, whatca going to do if it fails half way down! Unlikely, yes……

You can go down a mountain a thousand times to slow, you only go down them once to fast……..

 Sorry for the rant of sorts, just witnessed poor driving for to long!

 Sorry for the family’s loss……

Also an O/O (retired) - your insights are exactly as I was trained, operated, and was able to make it down all grades successfully: start the top of the hill at the speed you want to descend, use the gearing and engine brake to keep speed tightly under control. When 5mph over descent speed, brake to 5mph below, proceed with the gearing and engine brake, allowing the service brakes to cool. Repeat. 

As you said, very sorry for that family, but, IMO, they lacked the knowledge to descend safely.  

[96 EVO]

47 minutes ago, Beemermcr said:

Also an O/O (retired) - your insights are exactly as I was trained, operated, and was able to make it down all grades successfully: start the top of the hill at the speed you want to descend, use the gearing and engine brake to keep speed tightly under control. When 5mph over descent speed, brake to 5mph below, proceed with the gearing and engine brake, allowing the service brakes to cool. Repeat. 

As you said, very sorry for that family, but, IMO, they lacked the knowledge to descend safely.  

Hey, I've had semi's 'fly' past me going down 8-9% mountain grades!

I like to think they are running empty, and have made this decent many times before, but, I obviously have no way of knowing!

[Tdkkart]

On 9/7/2024 at 1:11 PM, PeterSchweizer said:

The emergency brake on mine is actually an air actuatored  "parking brake" so it's  either on or off, no in-between control. It clamps a set of brake  shoes around the drive shaft  as it Exits the transmission, not the wheels, which cans case  more damage and loss of control 

I have more than once seen that using this type of brake as an emergency brake results in a pretzeled driveshaft and then total loss of control.

One simple guideline to follow......."drive down a hill no faster than your rig can drive UP the same hill."

[jacwjames]

Based on the picture in the article it appears that the motorhome is relatively small/short at least compared to the pickup truck, can't tell if the truck was equiped with an supplemental brake.  There were 5 occupants in the motorhome on a trip.  

So I'm wondering what kind of weights they had, was it overloaded.    There have been numerous posts on IRV2 from people who acquire a new or used RV and are surprised at the low Cargo Carrying Capacity CCC.  There was even one post from someone asking if they can drain the water heater to get rid of the 50 pounds of water to get under the GVWR, and manufacturers continue to manufacture RV's with the limited weight limits. 

 

I know I have to watch our weight, surprisingly my Windsor has a low CCC, ~1800 lbs, my Class C had a higher CCC.   So for my last trip I made (yes not a typo, I MADE) my wife unload all of her stuff that she carries to to travel with dogs, Xpens, crates, and mounds and mounds of cloths.  Other then tools and some spare parts I travel pretty lite. 

In turn when my wife travels I unload tools and spare parts.  I did make her a small emergency tool kit to get by.   She finally admitted when she returned from her last trip she didn't need everything she packed and won't do it next time. 

[6Wheels]

Our Tiffin Allegro 32B had the Workhorse chassis, and I was pulling my motorcycle in a cargo trailer (electric brakes) down the southern slopes from the Smokies.  There were times I had to get up and STAND on the brakes to get it to slow down.  One of the reasons we upgraded to DP.

[amphi_sc]

I'm always saddened by a preventable accident, especially one with a loss of a precious life. By the time the braking emergency has emerged things have gone too far.  It is much better to err on the side of safety early and use that engine brake AND transmission proactively.  Downshift and slow to your target downhill speed BEFORE the grade, and if that can't be held use that shift pad and go down another gear.  In Canada I've often come across major roadways with 14% to 17% grades that I go down and NEVER have to engage the air brakes, thus they are there in reserve should I need to slow even more or completely stop for some reason.  Your compressor should always be able to keep up but do remember it takes air each time you step on the foot brake. I remember a rule of thumb that some will argue against, but it was to always go down in the same or lower gear than it requires going up.  In my coach full engine brake & 4th gear may not hold speed but downshifting to 3rd often means I can toggle between 1/2 and full compression brake maintaining my target speed.  I'll go down the Priest Grade bypass outside Yosemite in 2nd and never use the foot brake.

I find it very counterintuitive that it is ILLEGAL to warn drivers behind you that you are going slow by using other safety measures such as your 4 way flashers to gain their attention.  Illegal to drive with flashers on in:

Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California 
Colorado 
Delaware
Florida 
Georgia 
Hawaii 
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts 
Minnesota
Montana
Nevada
New Mexico
Ohio
Oklahoma
Rhode Island
Tennessee
Virginia 
Washington 
West Virginia
Wisconsin

Enjoy the journey and arrive alive.

FWIW

[6Wheels]

In some States a permit is required to have flashing lights.

I installed wig-wag flashers connected to backup and brake lights for fog, and low visibility situations.  I would not have them on when other drivers can see you - they already know it is a rough grade.  Just keep to the lane closest to your speed.

[amphi_sc]

12 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Based on the picture in the article it appears that the motorhome is relatively small/short at least compared to the pickup truck ...

My take from the picture was what looks like the yellow end of maybe a Cat engine so should have had a decent transmission and at least an exhaust brake.  Didn't see any drive shaft this implying it was not a gasser.