How to run new 30A Romex from Main Panel to inverter? 1999 Diplomat.

[Dick Roberts]

At the end of our year long road trip, at the last CG we stayed at, our 99 Diplomat developed some serious electrical issues. Both AC's still worked but nothing else. We had just bought a new home, and moved the coach there the beginning of April. Didn't have shore power setup there, and my genny was running poorly, so I didn't work on it until a couple of weeks ago. I installed a new 50 amp RV outlet, and began trouble shooting. On the 99 Dip, there is a box with two 20 amp CB's immediately after the inverter, which is located incomes out the rear passenger side bay. I discovered one neutral burned in two, the other neutral severely burned but still intact. The neutral buss bar was melted into the plastic base. I replaced the box and CB's, and cut the wires back beyond the damage. I made an extension cord out of romex and ran it from a 120 volt outlet directly into the inverter. All circuits inside the coach worked as expected. However, when I hooked up the coach wiring from the transfer switch, located in the rear drivers side bay, to the inverter and plug into SP, the line in to the inverter is dead. I have power coming out of the TS, and into the main breaker panel. I have power from the breakers in the panel going out on all lines, as far as I can test. But all the wires disappear into the walls of the coach, beyond my reach.

Somewhere between where the inverter wire disappears beyond the wall and where that wire emerges into the back bay, it loses power. I can wiggle that wire where it comes out of the ceiling of the bay and get intermittent power. That tells me I have a break up there somewhere. But where? Is there any way to access that wire without cutting into the coach? Has anyone successfully pulled new romex from the inverter to the main panel? Sadly, I don't have a manual nor elec diagrams. And even if I did, they wouldn't show the actual layout inside the walls of the various circuits. Any help or thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Dick Roberts

[Dr4Film]

Sounds to me like you are looking at running a new wire versus replacing the broken one.

[Dick Roberts]

I agree, but how in the blazes do you pull wires in an RV?

[Dr4Film]

You don't unless there is a hollow area with existing wires. Otherwise, you run them underneath to an area where you can get into the section you are trying to reach.

[Tom Cherry]

1999 is a year that we do NOT have a LOT of info on...

BUT....Going out on a LIMB....we DO have the 2000 Dip prints.

You can download them.  There is a 50 A print...that shows the power.  The Romex is or should be #6 (three conductor - CU stranded) with a Ground.  Monaco used #6 Ground....or I THINK #8....and we have also, personal experience, used a #10 Ground.  That is adequate.  The power comes from where ever your SHORE is connected...  If you have a REEL there will be a Junction box there.  THEN.,...there is NO JUNCTION BOX between the "POWER CONNECTION (cord or REEL) and the ATS.  Just a STRAIGHT RUN.  ODDS ARE, it is flex (Sealtite is the tradename) conduit.  IF you have an open connection....then ODDS ARE, assuming that Monaco used Flex conduit back then....in the Junction BOX.  Now WHERE THAT IS...  GOD only knows...

But that is how it done on the newer ones...and also, I think, on the older ones...

IF you Romex is NOT in Conduit....then GOD ONLY KNOWS what has happened where you can NOT SEE or get to.  

NOW....pictures would be great....but if Monaco was running only jacketed Romex back then.... then it is GONNA BE TOUGH....but I would run the Flex (plastic) conduit and start from the J-Box where the cord ties in....and up to the ATS.  

Remember....you are SPLICING #6 Wire.  You use a SPLIT NUT for the THREE connectors.  You use heavy FOAM tape....then cover that with Electrical tape.  CODE actually wants you to WRAP the split bolt in TWO thicknesses of a "Kraft Paper Bag" or a supermarket paper bag.  DON'T ASK WHY....so...Double WRAP with Paper Bag. Wrap with heavy Electrical Foam tape....and then finish off with Electrical tape.  YES...that is a BIG splice.

In later years, Monaco had a FOUR terminal Junction Box....so you put the TWO #6 under one LUG....and repeat for all three....  The GROUND can be wire nutted...

Good Luck....

[waterskier_1]

Your title is misleading.  I think what you are proposing is to run a new wire from the Breaker Panel, to the Inverter, NOT the Transfer Switch, which doesn't go to the Inverter, unless the wiring has been modified by someone.  

You will only need 10 gauge wire.  Remember you should never put  Romex inside conduit.  If you want to use conduit, then use independent stranded wires.  

This may need to be taken offline, some moderators don't like non-conforming wiring.  There are a lot of questions that might not be of interest to all the members, such as where, specifically, is your Breaker Panel.  If it is in a closet, or the back can be accessed from inside a closet, then you can run your new wiring down the back of the closet, through the floor, and then forward.  Again, depending on where your breaker panel is, you can route the wiring with other cable and hoses over the rear axle, and into the center ceiling of the basement, the up to the bay where the inverter is located.  There is no standard configuration on how Monaco wired the coaches, but generally, they wired the 110 VAC in the ceiling, and then down the walls.  If in a slide, then through the slide floor and up the walls. 

If you can provide clarification as to if you are meaning the Breaker Panel vs  the Transfer Switch, and where that panel is located, we may be able to assist.

  -Rick N.

[Dick Roberts]

19 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Your title is misleading.  I think what you are proposing is to run a new wire from the Breaker Panel, to the Inverter, NOT the Transfer Switch, which doesn't go to the Inverter, unless the wiring has been modified by someone.  

You will only need 10 gauge wire.  Remember you should never put  Romex inside conduit.  If you want to use conduit, then use independent stranded wires.  

This may need to be taken offline, some moderators don't like non-conforming wiring.  There are a lot of questions that might not be of interest to all the members, such as where, specifically, is your Breaker Panel.  If it is in a closet, or the back can be accessed from inside a closet, then you can run your new wiring down the back of the closet, through the floor, and then forward.  Again, depending on where your breaker panel is, you can route the wiring with other cable and hoses over the rear axle, and into the center ceiling of the basement, the up to the bay where the inverter is located.  There is no standard configuration on how Monaco wired the coaches, but generally, they wired the 110 VAC in the ceiling, and then down the walls.  If in a slide, then through the slide floor and up the walls. 

If you can provide clarification as to if you are meaning the Breaker Panel vs  the Transfer Switch, and where that panel is located, we may be able to assist.

  -Rick N.

Thanks Rick, you're right. I do mean the Breaker Panel and not the Transfer Switch. Wiring from TS to main panel is good. No issues there. The romex from the breaker panel to the inverter is where my issue is. Using my test light, I can verify power from the back of the breaker panel to where the wire disappears into the wall. That wire comes out of the ceiling of the bay the inverter is located in. No power at that point. The inverter (on passenger side), the breaker panel (on drivers side), and the transfer switch (drivers side) are all located at the rear of the coach. 

Passenger side of bed has two drawers. Drivers side has one drawer with breaker panel below. Bed in the middle, hinged at the head of the bed with engine hatch below bed. I'll post pics tomorrow if I haven't dreamed the answer tonight. 🙂 

Why no conduit for romex? I thought any kind of electric wire that wasn't hidden behind walls should be in conduit. Hmm! Still learning after all these years.

Thanks

Dick R

[Tom Cherry]

14 hours ago, Dick Roberts said:

Thanks Rick, you're right. I do mean the Breaker Panel and not the Transfer Switch. Wiring from TS to main panel is good. No issues there. The romex from the breaker panel to the inverter is where my issue is. Using my test light, I can verify power from the back of the breaker panel to where the wire disappears into the wall. That wire comes out of the ceiling of the bay the inverter is located in. No power at that point. The inverter (on passenger side), the breaker panel (on drivers side), and the transfer switch (drivers side) are all located at the rear of the coach. 

Passenger side of bed has two drawers. Drivers side has one drawer with breaker panel below. Bed in the middle, hinged at the head of the bed with engine hatch below bed. I'll post pics tomorrow if I haven't dreamed the answer tonight. 🙂 

Why no conduit for romex? I thought any kind of electric wire that wasn't hidden behind walls should be in conduit. Hmm! Still learning after all these years.

Thanks

Dick R

@waterskier_1 & @Dick Roberts

I edited the title.  It was pointed out previously to your two posts that more information and clarification and pictures were needed. Rick picked up on the real issue….

However….and this is from the STAFF.

The comment about “nonconformity” and personal preference is totally out of line and false and misleading.  In fact, we try to edit or monitor any “non confirming” recommendations for safety and also to prevent damage to a motor hone,  This has been posted repeatedly.

When a recommendation is posted that does NOT conform to Monaco’s original assembly standards or practices OR is NOT in compliance to the published Monaco schematics (typically all are “electrical) OR is NOT in conformance with a component manufacturer’s documentation…..  THEN…that is called out…..and a caveat is posted.  Rarely, has a post been deleted.  Many members, with good intentions, have posted misinformation that they “read on the net”.

Some are worse or potentially more damaging…..  Cases documented and in the topics…  two that come to mind.

Always RUN the PAC or EXHAUST brake.  Yes….folks have said that.  No engine manufacturer has ever stated or implied that…and expensive repairs have been required.

Stick a Golf TEE under the BATTERY BOOST switch and the “BIG BOY” will charge when you drive.  The 200 Amp Big BOY’s coil is NOT rated for a full or continuous 12/13 VDC input.  Intellitec doesn’t publish a “gonna burn up and overheat” after X minutes….but Monaco goes into a painstakingly high degree or discussion as how to PROPERLY use the Boost Switch.

OK….hope that explains and corrects such.  We have a solemn obligation to make sure that all recommendations meet the above criteria….and have the right to edit or comment to protect less than knowledge members or prevent injuries or destructive impacts to the MH….

Next up.  Any member(s) can go offline for assistance and very rarely is that suggested….unless the comments are “bogged” down and redundant and repetitive.  THEN that is suggested.  In fact, many difficult problems are solved by ONE-ONE phone calls. The Staff often does such to sssist…

Finally.  Monaco “did” some things….that the NEC does not, I think, approve.  However….since Monaco was responsible and liable….then that “item” falls under the “OEM ASSEMBLE STANDARD”.  

The “cable” used for 50 Amp incoming from Shore (reel or where the shore is connected) to the ATS; from the Genny to the ATS and from the ATS to the Main panel has many “names”.  It is a JACKETED cable. It has three insulated #6 stranded conductors..  The GROUND may have been SOLID or Stranded and may have been #10, #8 or #6.  That cable is also, in the trade, known as “Service Entrance” cable.  Those three “runs” were typically protected by flexible conduit…aka Sealtite or flex plastic conduit.  

SO….by our charter….if Monaco did it that way…so be it….end of discussion.  

NOW…based on what I know and is posted, Monaco used #10/2 with solid ground “Romex” for the 30A feed from the main panel to the inverter.  On a DUAL IN-DUAL OUT service, there were TWO runs…and then those runs, from the inverter back to the subpanel…were also #10 Romex.  They and all the #12 Romex was not, never say never, but TYPICALLY, protected by flex conduit.

Let’s move on….lets address the problem that Dick has….and it “HAS HAPPENED BEFORE” and many members have had to do significant “demo/restoration” to make new “Romex” runs.  Lets hope some Diplomat owners or others will chime in. Like any “how’d they do that?”….one never knows if or how many zip ties or clamps (probably not staples like a residential install) Monaco used….and IF one can use a fish line and pull it and then pull a new line back….

 

[Dick Roberts]

6 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

@waterskier_1 & @Dick Roberts

I edited the title.  It was pointed out previously to your two posts that more information and clarification and pictures were needed. Rick picked up on the real issue….

However….and this is from the STAFF.

The comment about “nonconformity” and personal preference is totally out of line and false and misleading.  In fact, we try to edit or monitor any “non confirming” recommendations for safety and also to prevent damage to a motor hone,  This has been posted repeatedly.

When a recommendation is posted that does NOT conform to Monaco’s original assembly standards or practices OR is NOT in compliance to the published Monaco schematics (typically all are “electrical) OR is NOT in conformance with a component manufacturer’s documentation…..  THEN…that is called out…..and a caveat is posted.  Rarely, has a post been deleted.  Many members, with good intentions, have posted misinformation that they “read on the net”.

Some are worse or potentially more damaging…..  Cases documented and in the topics…  two that come to mind.

Always RUN the PAC or EXHAUST brake.  Yes….folks have said that.  No engine manufacturer has ever stated or implied that…and expensive repairs have been required.

Stick a Golf TEE under the BATTERY BOOST switch and the “BIG BOY” will charge when you drive.  The 200 Amp Big BOY’s coil is NOT rated for a full or continuous 12/13 VDC input.  Intellitec doesn’t publish a “gonna burn up and overheat” after X minutes….but Monaco goes into a painstakingly high degree or discussion as how to PROPERLY use the Boost Switch.

OK….hope that explains and corrects such.  We have a solemn obligation to make sure that all recommendations meet the above criteria….and have the right to edit or comment to protect less than knowledge members or prevent injuries or destructive impacts to the MH….

Next up.  Any member(s) can go offline for assistance and very rarely is that suggested….unless the comments are “bogged” down and redundant and repetitive.  THEN that is suggested.  In fact, many difficult problems are solved by ONE-ONE phone calls. The Staff often does such to sssist…

Finally.  Monaco “did” some things….that the NEC does not, I think, approve.  However….since Monaco was responsible and liable….then that “item” falls under the “OEM ASSEMBLE STANDARD”.  

The “cable” used for 50 Amp incoming from Shore (reel or where the shore is connected) to the ATS; from the Genny to the ATS and from the ATS to the Main panel has many “names”.  It is a JACKETED cable. It has three insulated #6 stranded conductors..  The GROUND may have been SOLID or Stranded and may have been #10, #8 or #6.  That cable is also, in the trade, known as “Service Entrance” cable.  Those three “runs” were typically protected by flexible conduit…aka Sealtite or flex plastic conduit.  

SO….by our charter….if Monaco did it that way…so be it….end of discussion.  

NOW…based on what I know and is posted, Monaco used #10/2 with solid ground “Romex” for the 30A feed from the main panel to the inverter.  On a DUAL IN-DUAL OUT service, there were TWO runs…and then those runs, from the inverter back to the subpanel…were also #10 Romex.  They and all the #12 Romex was not, never say never, but TYPICALLY, protected by flex conduit.

Let’s move on….lets address the problem that Dick has….and it “HAS HAPPENED BEFORE” and many members have had to do significant “demo/restoration” to make new “Romex” runs.  Lets hope some Diplomat owners or others will chime in. Like any “how’d they do that?”….one never knows if or how many zip ties or clamps (probably not staples like a residential install) Monaco used….and IF one can use a fish line and pull it and then pull a new line back….

 

Thanks  for the title edit, Tom,

I have pics now.

Looking at the back wall of the bedroom. Panel is on the bottom right, drivers side.

The panel is pulled out as far as it will go due to no slack in the wires.

 

This wire from Inverter CB to the Inverter. It has power at this point, but .....

Same wire but has no power here.

The wire must go between the floor and the sub floor some where behind the bed. No wires in drawer space on passenger side.

I see two options, as the number of bends in this wire will make it almost impossible to pull.

A) Drill a hole in the three red circles and pull new romex.

B) Remove bed and find (or cut) an access panel in the wall to access area between the wall and the rear cap, to facilitate new romex install in original location.

My least favorite is B. That requires removing a heavy mattress and then removing the bedframe. Sounds like a three man job to me.

Option A only needs three holes drilled with a battery drill and drop in the wire. Easy Peasy, right? The engine hatch does not get hot while driving, I've checked.

Any thoughts on either of these options?

Thanks,

Dick R